Global Warming 2.0 (thread reopened; let's keep it civil)

[Omhra]

Locking toggle;
since you are moving me into a position where science is "not enough"... I am obliged to scoot to your level... Sideways, downways, whatever ways...
I thought it was plain...

How do you seek to revise other methods to rival science...

 

[Moonwalker]

Exactly. He would examine which of these works better under some selected conditions and by special qualities.

For example: Does praying really help against climate change?

Praying does help against climate change just like the IPCC and the scientific prophesies and conclusions do help against it, that is to say: not a bit. The climate does not care what is going on within this thread and in peoples minds. The fact that climate always changes without human existence shows that there is a very little chance that humans would ever be able to do something "against" it. Of course we can do a lot more than any other species. But changing the climate back to what some of us believe is a "normal level", is rather arrogant and for sure more than impossible. It is sheer megalomania.

It is interesting that most of those who believe humans are changing the earths climate dramatically and complain about it, do actually almost nothing against it. They also drive cars, use airplanes, have a meal at Burger King and so on. They almost use the same energy. Of course "because it is available". This is a comfortable excuse.

My advice: stop driving everything and stop consuming the available power made by coal. Make your own clothes and eat your own meal comming from your own little farm. Do not complain about others as long as you are part of a system and profit from industries which offers fossil fuels and changes the nature. Start at your own to do the best you can do, instead of sitting in front of computers/the internet and complain about climate change.

Those who would do so, would come back for sure (way more than 90% at least), because they would discover that without access to energy, life is brutal and short. There is not a lot exodus from the cities, but rural flight for various reasons.

 

[-Pv-]

"The fact that climate always changes without human existence shows that there is a very little chance that humans would ever be able to do something "against" it."

All you have to ask yourself is has there ever been an Ice Age?

While I agree that humans are contributing to destruction of large natural structures necessary for survival, It costs a lot of energy to develop new energy technologies and prove them for mass distribution. The best we can hope for is the encouragement of industry to advance technology while taking practical measures to conserve what we have without shutting down our industry by denying them the power and resources to try new things.

"The stone age didn't end because we ran out of rocks."

In the end, people are motivated primarily by what they have to gain by investing their life's energy into projects. Imagination+energy+self interest+time=results

-Pv-

 

[Omhra]

Praying does help against climate change just like the IPCC and the scientific prophesies and conclusions do help against it, that is to say: not a bit. The climate does not care what is going on within this thread and in peoples minds. The fact that climate always changes without human existence shows that there is a very little chance that humans would ever be able to do something "against" it. Of course we can do a lot more than any other species. But changing the climate back to what some of us believe is a "normal level", is rather arrogant and for sure more than impossible. It is sheer megalomania.

It is interesting that most of those who believe humans are changing the earths climate dramatically and complain about it, do actually almost nothing against it. They also drive cars, use airplanes, have a meal at Burger King and so on. They almost use the same energy. Of course "because it is available". This is a comfortable excuse.

My advice: stop driving everything and stop consuming the available power made by coal. Make your own clothes and eat your own meal comming from your own little farm. Do not complain about others as long as you are part of a system and profit from industries which offers fossil fuels and changes the nature. Start at your own to do the best you can do, instead of sitting in front of computers/the internet and complain about climate change.

Those who would do so, would come back for sure (way more than 90% at least), because they would discover that without access to energy, life is brutal and short. There is not a lot exodus from the cities, but rural flight for various reasons.

Wow...

First,

We use the apparatuses available to us in market... I do build lots of things, but yeah; I use a car from the Chevrolet school of thought... it sports 120 year old technology buttered up with some sensors that offset ignition timing and air intake, and a catalytic converter that catalyzes CO into CO2... whatever...
Now... If 20 years ago we had started the mindset to evolve our technologies to a more efficient (won't say cleaner because you'll resist the notion, perhaps efficient will hit your soft spot) and steadfastly moved into a no pollution market, for what ever reason you wish... climate NOOOO no no... not climate because we can radiate 1/4 of Europe in Belarus with just one misshap and half the dessert in USA with 370 nuclear open air explosions... but no, we are too small to do anything to the earth.... Right?, we wouldn't be discussing in this terms.

Stop and think that maybe, just maybe its the other way around and you are too proud to think you are actually to blame, a little, by refusing to think that making things that function in a more efficient way is just "smarter".

But you refuse the idea because... you think it will "cost" too much.
Because we are too arrogant.
Because we are insignificant.
Because we are megalomaniacs.
Because we are not smart enough to dream and seek to understand these things.
Because for some reason we MUST be at the mercy of circumstance.

ALL OF THEM NEGATIVE.

You are negative.


We say,

We can get to understand this.
We can progress.
We are affecting things.
We are responsible for deforestation.
We are responsible for countless species dieing-off.
Our CO2, NOX, OCH emissions are not good for the Eco-systems.
Those same emissions are known to trap heat.
We can see we are having an unprecedented acceleration in climate change.
We know there are cycles, but look at the swing this time...
We CAN change it.

Squarely placing responsibility on our shoulders and pleading with you to see it.

You shake your head and repeat... repeat... repeat... repeat.. ad nauseam...


And -PV-;
the fact that the Climate changes without human existence (as you say) is only proof that climate changes... It proves nothing of what you say.
Would be like saying that if rain makes the road wet and the road is wet, then it must have rained.
And again... It costs a lot of energy to develop... etcetera... are you saying that in 10 years instead of remaking all the molds in the car industry to make an all new piston engine cost less than to make a transition to more modern tech?
Do you thing it would cost more than a few 100s of billions? Because, you know, that is about how much its costing the USA alone to KEEP the current garbage those industries sell... You do know that, right?

 

[lockingtoggle]

For example: Does praying really help against climate change?

You should address that question to someone who believes in God and in GW.
I am not a religious man, so I can't help you on that.

How do you seek to revise other methods to rival science...

Which of my posts made you think this? I thought we understood each other on this point, on this post.

 

[simonpro]

The mind boggles.

 

[Omhra]

indeed...
And there again... pearls, my pearls!

 

[simonpro]

Hmm, I've just realsied my last post was somewhat less than constructive.
In an attempt to redeem myself, have those of you who disagree with the anthropogenic global warming hypothesis actually read the IPCC report?
i think it's somewhat foolhardy to criticise it before you've actually read the thing. There's plenty of information in it, some I agree with and some I don't, but it does clear a lot of the typical arguments up.

 

[Urwumpe]

You should address that question to someone who believes in God and in GW.
I am not a religious man, so I can't help you on that.

Does not matter. I remember that medics researched a few years ago, if praying has any effect on how people recover from serious illnesses. Did not have much to do with the church, but a lot with psychology and placebo effects.

I recommend reading the igNobel awarded research themes, some scientists manage to create the better questions about the universe and research these still with accuracy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ig_Nobel_Prize_winners

 

[Omhra]

That is good advice. READ!

 

[Eagle]

Hmm, I've just realsied my last post was somewhat less than constructive.
In an attempt to redeem myself, have those of you who disagree with the anthropogenic global warming hypothesis actually read the IPCC report?
i think it's somewhat foolhardy to criticise it before you've actually read the thing. There's plenty of information in it, some I agree with and some I don't, but it does clear a lot of the typical arguments up.

I read it a year or so ago. I don't remember enough for a detailed criticism, which means I probably need to reread it again.

It has some good science in it that can't really be disagreed with it, but those findings are rather conservative. The more important claims weren't as backed up as well. Theory used to back up the data set was derived from the data set. Heavy reliance on models and model derived data. Some policy recommendations that didn't relate to the data.

I think its a good idea for most of us to look over it this weekend.

Oh I'm very open to possibility that I'm completely wrong. Heck I'm wrong all the time, but that doesn't prove the other idea is right. I don't keep wrong ideas around once they're proven as such either.

 

[Moonwalker]

I've read the IPCC report, and not just the latest one. But I'm not the kind of peron which kneels down in front of such documents, adoring it, which are mostly valid of limited duration anyway. Numbers and diagrams is one thing, real life is another one.

 

[Urwumpe]

Moonwalker: And still you expect us to kneel down in front of your opinion, which came from your "real" life and should, according to your latest announcement, not be based on numbers and diagrams.

Don't you think that you are getting a bit bigot in your attempt, to fight the IPCC reports? How many numbers is your "real" life made of? How many diagrams did you use in the past year? Or are you rich enough to have accountants who fight the numbers and diagrams for you?

You have maybe read the reports. But I get more and more the impression, that you have not understood what the numbers represent - and also don't want to.

Tree is just the combination of the letters T, R, and E. But the result is more than just the sum of all characters and represents something.

 

[Omhra]

I've read the IPCC report, and not just the latest one. But I'm not the kind of peron which kneels down in front of such documents, adoring it, which are mostly valid of limited duration anyway. Numbers and diagrams is one thing, real life is another one.

And certainly use a lot of religious allegory to your "thoughts"....

I agree, this weekend we all should revise the IPCC report 'The latest one' and also look at our sources to cross check when "shady" info is detected.

 

[-Pv-]

"the fact that the Climate changes without human existence (as you say) is only proof that climate changes"

The interpretation of what was thought I said is an interesting interpretation. I proved that climate changes?

"Because we are too arrogant.
Because we are insignificant.
Because we are megalomaniacs."

Insignificant, Arrogant, Megalomaniacs. I like it.

I'm glad the dinosaurs died off and we didn't have anything more successful than the Mammoth to contend with. While I'm as enamored of them as anyone, can you imagine contending with the excrement, greenhouse gas and deforestation they would be causing right now if they had continued unabated?

I'm also glad the Earth is warming up. Where I live was once under 600 ft of ice. It's now one of the most livable cities in the world. Maybe the day will come when I can turn my heat off and stop using our precious energy reserves for my own piteous existence and the rest of the world can use 100% of my gross domestic product to further everyone else's superior objectives.

The Obamanation preached during his campaign that everyone should do their part to help stop climate change by turning down the thermostat to 68 deg F. As soon as he was in office, the oval office got turned up to 72. He's from Hawaii you see so he's used to it being warmer. We can disregard all the years he spent in Chicago.

When people in power decide those they don't agree with should be treated as ignorant, and people they do agree with are treated favorably, then we have tyranny, especially when this behavior comes from the top. While couching political correctness on the comfortable padding of science sounds like the voodoo magic which can authenticate ANY opinion, it's still tyranny when you tell other people how to live, how much of their life energy they get to use to improve their own lives, what they can say, and how much energy gets taken away to improve the lives of other people who do nothing to earn what they got other than agreeing with the people in power.

It's also much easier to defend a position when other opinions are suppressed. Our largely government controlled school system aggressively promotes political correctness and disuades non-conforming opinions.

Francis Bacon was one of the most influential and successful proponents of the scientific method during his time. Like a lot of Renaissance thinkers, he believed that since the universe was created by a rational God, the under-lying laws and structures must also be rational (rather than chaotic and inconsistent or accidental) and thus discoverable by systematic observation and testing.
"Our humanity is a poor thing, except for the divinity that stirs within us."

"God has placed no limits to the exercise of the intellect he has given us, on this side of the grave."

-Pv-

 

[Moonwalker]

Moonwalker: And still you expect us to kneel down in front of your opinion, which came from your "real" life and should, according to your latest announcement, not be based on numbers and diagrams.

Don't you think that you are getting a bit bigot in your attempt, to fight the IPCC reports?

I think that people who have the picture in mind that humans are able to control climate change or do something "against" it, expect almost everybody to kneel down in front of those pictures and visions.

The present is not bad, and it is not going to be bad, regardless of what the IPCC and others do pronounce. It is not people like me who become bigot of numbers, diagrams and soothsaying.


-----Post Added-----

I read this until I saw the words "James Hansen". Then I stopped.

Why?

 

[Spicer]

manbearpig

 

[Urwumpe]

I think that people who have the picture in mind that humans are able to control climate change or do something "against" it, expect almost everybody to kneel down in front of those pictures and visions.

We can also claim to be able to control our economy (And that often successfully), despite the complexity of this being even higher than our climate: In the climate, you don't have secrets and the temperatures are also not made artificial high for a better image.

The number of relations between two voxels in a climate model is much lower than the number of relations between two market participants. Still, I wonder if you would claim that we can't control our economy and should not even think about it. When your money runs out, taxes blow up and prices explode, I am sure, you are the first to call for experts to do something against it.

The present is not bad, and it is not going to be bad, regardless of what the IPCC and others do pronounce. It is not people like me who become bigot of numbers, diagrams and soothsaying.

No? But how can you say so? Experience? Your life is not much longer than the existence of the IPCC. Regardless how loud you shout and rattle: You have no personal experience of climate.

Also, how can you argue against diagrams? Just by the fact that they are diagrams and so they must be bad? What is made of numbers can't be correct? You are entering a slippery road with such a foolish argumentation, and still you are happily picking up speed. Especially since we are inside the orbiter forum... and I would really like to see you play it without relying on mathematics and diagrams.

If you want to argue against mathematics, you need to know mathematics first. Just like the IPCC reports. I don't believe that you understood them, and your circular arguments against mathematical tools don't help dispersing this belief.

I think you should leave this thread for arguments about the global warming and create your own thread about "Numbers and diagrams are wrong." Maybe even "Science is wrong. My prophecies are the only truth."

 

[tl8]

manbearpig

Normally this would be Off-topic, but for some reason it just fits.

 

[lockingtoggle]

have those of you who disagree with the anthropogenic global warming hypothesis actually read the IPCC report?

This is the same as asking;
Have those of you who disagree with God existence actually read the Bible?

And to be more in the constructive side of the debate
The point is not reading but understanding it. Than in order to endorse or reject it, we need to be able to make a judgment on its findings. And that would require a profound knowledge of multiple scientific disciplines that no single scientist brain can possess all at once. Only a guru brain can.

So the question rises, how the hell are we supposed to draw conclusions from such a document, else that by judging the way the panel which produced it was set up, its compositions and the way it operates. Some find it right, some find it wrong.

To answer your questions, yes I’ve read some parts of it. With some I did agree, some others I did not understood and some others made me laugh. That little tiny part I read took me a week, not a weekend.