Idea Other platform options for orbiter

[DarkFact]

I want to use the GameStudio 3.0 and Xbox 360 Community Development Kit to bring to the console this simulator. Mainly to prove many out there love the space sims and flight sims.

So many companies are affraid to take chances with things like orbiter. But hey I am willing to eat 100 bucks just to make it happen, but I wanted Martins premission before I even get anything started first.

Main reason for this post is to see, since I have found how to support mouse, keyboard, and flight sticks, if you fellas would be interested in seeing orbiter with it's finest addons in high definition with high end sound?

I am interested to hear replies to this as it would help to choose the right addons to port with it and to help in assisting in adjustments to the engine during port.

Thanks martin I have loved every minute of the sim, and continue to challenge myself with it, as does my 8 year old daughter, whom I never suspected to like space travel at all until I saw her enjoy orbiter.

 

[Jarvitä]

I see orbiter in 1920*1200, which, I believe, is higher than the standard 1080p. Besides that, I just don't see how you plan on porting Orbiter to the xbox, nor do I see what purpose that would serve.

 

[insane_alien]

i already do see it in 1080p on a 37-inch screen with sound just as good as your going to get on the Xbox.

and if i hook it up to my 24-inch desktop monitor i can see it in 1920x1200 as well.

it would be difficult to port to the xbox as it is a very different platform and controls would be limited. much like RTS games simulators such as this do not go well on consoles.

also your going to need the source code and some good programming skills. i'd much rather see a linux/mac version first so i can ditch my dual boot.

 

[Ghostrider]

A Wii version would be sWiit.

 

[DarkFact]

I think you missed part of my post.

See the 360's Kit supports mouse, keyboard (via USB), and flightstick support.

I am wanting to bring a quality version, without breaking the bank, to port it over isn't all that hard, it's in C++ and that is the native language used for 360 development. The compiler is what is required by to console, it will build to that platform at the click of a pull down.

You have to admit it would be nice to have a version totally free of locking up or fouled by mis-configuration as is mostly the case with PC games.

You would still play with your favorite keyboard, mouse, and other features. Let's be honest not all people have money to see orbiter in the resolutions you mentioned with out a big investment in a video card and monitor of some kind, and while the Xbox requires an investment of between (150-250) bucks now days, and a 1080p Screen to view it on, which most 720p's run about 150 to 350 bucks, of course depending on size, it's still cheaper to enjoy it with less agrivation than a PC provides.

Turn on console, select orbiter, play orbiter, when done turn it off.

Where as a PC is a major ordeal. First virus scanners, firewalls, adware, spyware, hacks, trojans, expensive hardware, expensive software(aka operating systems), and so so support for joysticks. It would to me seem a good platform to test with since a lot of the Xbox community is a group of previous PC sim players and gamers tired of the constant maintainence and problems akin to the PC.

I love the PC like everyone else here, and by no means am I a MAC man, but to me I think all expose that can be given the Orbiter sim I would love to see happen, as with each person exposed you have the potential to spark that want to go out and travel the skies to see whats there

Sure it might not be necessary to do it, but you have to admit it would be cool, and much easier to play than it's PC counter part. (Especially since my high definition projector is 1080p and 110" diagonal image) LMAO

I do see where your coming from and hopefully you guys see my point too. More exposure to anything cool regardless platform is always good. Oh and 360 uses the DirectX 10 API, .NET 3.5 API and the GameStudio 3.0 API's which basically make producing a small project as quick as a couple of days.

Thanks for the feedback guys.

 

[Urwumpe]

Orbiter is no small project and it is also not build for running on a small Console - it has many assumptions in it's API which mean it has to be installed on a Windows PC. Also how do you want to handle add-ons?

Also, I think you have no idea on real game development yet, because your own estimates on the complexity of the task are pretty unrealistic. Especially, there is no DirectX 10 renderer yet for Orbiter and the DirectX 9 renderer is not trivial. I doubt you can just shake a DirectX 10 renderer out of your hat in some days.

And also Orbiter is not suffering from a lack of distribution, it is suffering from a steep learning curve. Many more people have Orbiter capable PCs, than who use it. Porting it to a console will not change this.

Finally: Orbiters license does not work together with the license of the GameDevelopmentKit. But I am sure, you have not read the license of the GDK properly to know about how Microsoft can afford selling the XBox with loss.

 

[DarkFact]

Orbiter is no small project and it is also not build for running on a small Console - it has many assumptions in it's API which mean it has to be installed on a Windows PC. Also how do you want to handle add-ons?

Also, I think you have no idea on real game development yet, because your own estimates on the complexity of the task are pretty unrealistic. Especially, there is no DirectX 10 renderer yet for Orbiter and the DirectX 9 renderer is not trivial. I doubt you can just shake a DirectX 10 renderer out of your hat in some days.

And also Orbiter is not suffering from a lack of distribution, it is suffering from a steep learning curve. Many more people have Orbiter capable PCs, than who use it. Porting it to a console will not change this.

Finally: Orbiters license does not work together with the license of the GameDevelopmentKit. But I am sure, you have not read the license of the GDK properly to know about how Microsoft can afford selling the XBox with loss.

Totally agree with you on the renderer, DirectX10 renderer that is, would be no small task. However, the one item I have most concern with due to the complexity is the sound, going from just jo blow stereo to 5.1, the ease of use of the dev kit truly is the easiest I've ever seen and the assistance from MS is top notch so if I hit a wall I can get help from the source .

And no this isn't my first rodeo, I have done some pretty complex projects in several languages: C#, C+, C++, even the old borland C+ from way back, Pascal, Cobol, Java, HTML, XML, and too many too list.

I have written MMORPG in VB6 and 2008. So yes I understand large projects. No I am not taking it lightly, but I am very excited to see if this will work and how well.

I view this as a challenge and that will hopefully be a fun trip.

You can do anything you want as long as you see it through. A lot of people won't or don't try and that's what makes things impossible.

Anyhow, I appreciate the comments. I am heeding your advice to not take it lightly.

Besides I love the Orbiter community you guys have some of the best ideas I have seen.

---------- Post added at 01:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:31 PM ----------

Orbiter is no small project and it is also not build for running on a small Console - it has many assumptions in it's API which mean it has to be installed on a Windows PC. Also how do you want to handle add-ons?

Also, I think you have no idea on real game development yet, because your own estimates on the complexity of the task are pretty unrealistic. Especially, there is no DirectX 10 renderer yet for Orbiter and the DirectX 9 renderer is not trivial. I doubt you can just shake a DirectX 10 renderer out of your hat in some days.

And also Orbiter is not suffering from a lack of distribution, it is suffering from a steep learning curve. Many more people have Orbiter capable PCs, than who use it. Porting it to a console will not change this.

Finally: Orbiters license does not work together with the license of the GameDevelopmentKit. But I am sure, you have not read the license of the GDK properly to know about how Microsoft can afford selling the XBox with loss.

I do plan to support mods and add ons, however, the core will be unmodified if the add on is damaged or removed the core files will load instead. Basically your add on goes to a memory stick or external HDD then the engine will either read from there or copy to the console's save folder assigned to the program.

So unplug the drive and it's orbiter minus, say, the outer planets add on.

The big modifications like apollo and some of those I haven't worked out yet, but that's the basic plan.

As for the size of the console honestly guys, it's a triple core hyper threaded 3.2 Ghz CPU, 512 MB of DDR2 Memory, Sata HDD and DVD drive.
With 512 MB of Vid mem on a proprietary DX10 ATI video card. It also has a lot of USB capability too.

Let's face it's better than most people computers that currently run orbiter now.

It's actually a pretty big work horse, Call of Duty World at War is pretty much superior to the PC's visually, but that's a bad example as orbiter is a serious sim and CoD is a game.

I just think it would be fun to see this out

 

[Artlav]

Can Xbox360 handle OpenGL and Linux?
If yes, then it's a matter of WINE'ing the core and linking the graphics client.

But, my bet is that's like asking if a mosque holds Christian messes.

 

[Hielor]

You also might want to talk to TCR_500. He's working on his own simulator; it would probably be easier to build an XBox version of a simulator as it's being made than it would be to go in after one is already complete.

Moreover, consoles die out eventually--Orbiter is currently using much the same technology as it was in 2002. Had you made a console version in 2002, it would be all but useless now.

I'm also not sure what you're talking about with an XBox having more power than a desktop. I'll take my desktop over one of those dinky things any day.

 

[DarkFact]

Linux and 360

Yes you can run linux on a 360 however, you cannot do so with a legitimate machine. You would need a mod chip which has the linux kernel, and then load the os to the HDD.

To answer bluntly yes and no.

It's definately something to ponder on though.

 

[TSPenguin]

The PS3 nowadays comes with linux. I don't know what access the driver gives for 3D but "WINE'ing" it over there should be way easier than to porting the whole thing over to XBOX, not mentioning license issues, the need of the source etc.
For anyone to properly learn orbiter you need to access the forum/tutorials quite frequently, or even have them open as you run the sim. I've never heard of any console supporting windowed mode.

 

[DarkFact]

Hielor about your ideas

The 360 has no plans of being replaced till 2012, and the sdk for the game studio will remain compatible, aka new xbox comes out then you can run the older software on it.

What I was saying not everyone is running 3500 dollar gaming rigs, and that those are more uncommon than common. Out of 50 people I know maybe 5 having gaming rigs that can play what the xbox does.

2 of them are slightly behind the xbox, and like I say the most common computers just aren't that strong, mainly because they were bought with the thought of just doing email, word or whatever.

Since you can utilize all the controllers such as keyboard, mouse and flightsticks, the xbox is in someways better to the PC.

One group of hardware that you write for simplifies the coding process. I just write the code for what it has and I don't have to worry about SLI machines vs how it behaves with ATI cards varing types of video memory or drive speeds. Well, you get the idea.

I have seen many cool advents in the console market. I have never seen a company do what Xbox has by allowing the typical gamer access to the machine to write homebrew programs for it. It is a first in history and to be honest I want to promote that as well as introduce people that either aren't PC gamers or whatever the reason may be but love sims, which I know a few people like that, to a really wonderful concept that is orbiter.

Sure it may never get downloaded but I will have contributed something to both communities, and possibly get the console haters out there to see that consoles in many ways have surpassed the PC's. Mainly for one reason, I haven't seen a virus for Xbox or PS3 yet.

I do get what your saying though and understand where your coming from, but when you hit the level that I have with the PC your frustration with trying to be able to keep it new enough to get just 30 Frames per second is just too often and costly.

Console life span is about 4-5 years, average PC is only game worthy for maybe six months, possibly a year if you really auntie up for a big butt machine worth many thousands of dollars. You just don't get the bang for the buck like you used to from the PC's.

But hey that's purely my opinion.

 

[escapetomsfate]

The PS3 nowadays comes with linux. I don't know what access the driver gives for 3D but "WINE'ing" it over there should be way easier than to porting the whole thing over to XBOX, not mentioning license issues, the need of the source etc.
For anyone to properly learn orbiter you need to access the forum/tutorials quite frequently, or even have them open as you run the sim. I've never heard of any console supporting windowed mode.

Then an interactive tutorial is needed.

cough cough.

http://www.orbiter-forum.com/showthread.php?t=7710

And I agree, easier to port to PS3. Can you install windows on a ps3? Sort of cheating, but that would be the easiest way.

Console life span is about 4-5 years, average PC is only game worthy for maybe six months, possibly a year if you really auntie up for a big butt machine worth many thousands of dollars. You just don't get the bang for the buck like you used to from the PC's.

You can upgrade a PC though. If you bought a PC in 1990, and continually upgraded it for the next 20 years, you'd be better off than a friend who just bought the latest console.

 

[Artlav]

What is it about modern consoles anyway? Blu-ray writers and BD-R's are expensive, and a monitor beats a TV.

 

[DarkFact]

Linux, PS3 and WINE'ing

The PS3 nowadays comes with linux. I don't know what access the driver gives for 3D but "WINE'ing" it over there should be way easier than to porting the whole thing over to XBOX, not mentioning license issues, the need of the source etc.
For anyone to properly learn orbiter you need to access the forum/tutorials quite frequently, or even have them open as you run the sim. I've never heard of any console supporting windowed mode.

As far as windowed mode goes, I don't think I have ever ran orbiter that way, but it's just easier for me to print what I want lay it on the desk and have at it, but that's just my approach to it.

Linux is great that it's free, and PS3 is ok but the fan base is the only thing that shy'd me from the PS3, xbox outsold the PS3 and the PS2 combined 2.5:1. It essential made it not even a contender.

Now the WII out sold the xbox by that amount but it doesn't use PC hardware, nor does it allow community gamers to code for it.

MS will damned near walk you through it with the software you download, live support, email, or chat. So getting help shouldn't be a problem.

Out of the 3 consoles it seemed the most capable, like I say, most people I know last november sold PS3's and got either Xbox or WII.

I hate the WII too too kiddy and not really that good looking either. LOL

 

[Oceanic]

i used the ps3 game pad for a while on orbiter and it worked quite nicely, it has 16 buttons and two xy sticks, unfortunately the driver didn't support the bluetooth and the two analog shoulder buttons (they where maped as digital)

so the controls are not that bad...

 

[Artlav]

MS will damned near walk you through it with the software you download, live support, email, or chat. So getting help shouldn't be a problem.

Only if you're a total idiot. Any significant issue, and they're as clueless as the problem-haver.

 

[TSPenguin]

What I was saying not everyone is running 3500 dollar gaming rigs

I got this 600 euro PC with monitor that runs orbiter in 1080p quite nicely...
You seem to be quite determined. So good luck to you! If you ever finish something I might get some of the consoletards I know into orbiting. What I really doubt, but it is worth a shot.

One question though. How will you handle the differences between 1080p, 720p and NTSC/PAL? All require different panels. And if you run on a screen that is not pixel accurate, you won't be able to read anything anyway.

 

[Ghostrider]

I hate the WII too too kiddy and not really that good looking either. LOL

However with that controller it could make for some nice spacewalks.

 

[Urwumpe]

I got this 600 euro PC with monitor that runs orbiter in 1080p quite nicely...

Yeah. My PC cost all together 1500 Euro once... spread over 5 years of continues upgrading and repairs. Try that with a XBox. Today, my PC would be worth approximately 400 Euro, and can do a lot more than the mentioned XBox set-up. For example also crunching some numbers - which the PS/3 would be far better able of, even compared to my PC. The PS/3 has a real powerful processor (IBM Cell) inside, not a damaged Celeron.