News Germanwings Flight 4U9525 (Airbus A320) crash in Southern France (24 March 2015)

[DeskOrbinaut]

The technology is now becoming more reliable than humans.

In case it's not meant ironic I have to disagree. Flying an airliner depends on very fast changing situations which require humans on the ground and in the cockpit. Just think of air traffic and meteorology. Also, airplanes can't land on its own safely in all circumstances. The autopilot has its limits (crosswinds for example).

 

[Urwumpe]

In case it's not meant ironic I have to disagree. Flying an airliner depends on very fast changing situations which require humans on the ground and in the cockpit. Just think of air traffic and meteorology. Also, airplanes can't land on its own safely in all circumstances. The autopilot has its limits (crosswinds for example).

Computers will get better. And the requirements on human test pilots will grow as well then.

Sorry, but I really don't think that there is much, that a human will in the future do better there. The problem is not doing the right or wrong things. The problem is responsibility. Who is responsible, when an autopilot decides wrong?

 

[DeskOrbinaut]

Computers will get better. And the requirements on human test pilots will grow as well then.

Sorry, but I really don't think that there is much, that a human will in the future do better there. The problem is not doing the right or wrong things. The problem is responsibility. Who is responsible, when an autopilot decides wrong?

As long as transportation is meant for carrying humans, it will always include humans to control the transport and be responsible for sure.

When the auto pilot is doing something wrong, the pilot has to intervene. If he doesn't, he es doing wrong either and will have bad hours in the curt. The pilot has the priority. No matter how modern the systems are. And I doubt this will change in future.

 

[Hielor]

Depression is a very real thing and people who suffer from it often will not be in the most logical frame of mind. Depression sufferers can also appear perfectly normal to outsiders, and they come from all walks of life and any career path.

If you say "it doesn't make any sense why someone would bring down 150 people with them" you aren't thinking like a depressed person because you're applying logic to the situation.

 

[Urwumpe]

Depression is a very real thing and people who suffer from it often will not be in the most logical frame of mind.

I would still shy away from already discussing depression. We don't know. Its one great cause of suicides, but not the only one, and then, we don't still don't know much about what happened in the cockpit.

 

[Frilock]

Depression is a very real thing and people who suffer from it often will not be in the most logical frame of mind. Depression sufferers can also appear perfectly normal to outsiders, and they come from all walks of life and any career path.

If you say "it doesn't make any sense why someone would bring down 150 people with them" you aren't thinking like a depressed person because you're applying logic to the situation.

As someone who's been down that path I know exactly how that is. The best way I can describe it is like when you're working on something, and its not working out right. You start getting frustrated and start making more mistakes until finally you get to a point where logic goes out the window, you lose your temper and start DELIBERATELY making this worse (throwing tools, banging on your desk, ect). Then when you finally decided to get up and walk away and come back after you've cooled down you're like 'Why the **** did I do that?'

In my case I almost did something stupid, got up and managed to walk away from it, and when I realized what I had almost done, decided I couldn't handle it anymore and got help. Sadly, not everyone has the ability walk away from it long enough to come back to reality.

 

[DeskOrbinaut]

we still don't know much about what happened in the cockpit.

That's why I'm still sceptical. If you are going to pass out you might not be able anymore to tell what you are doing right now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26pyx1JPM6Y

Maybe he had in mind that he would have to perform the descent. The altitude setting was changed to 13.008 feet first an then to 96 feet by the way:

http://forum.flightradar24.com/thre...der-of-4U9525-and-found-some-more-dat?p=64616

 

[Urwumpe]

No, he likely went directly to the minimum of 100 ft - the altitude was changed in just 3 seconds.

 

[Topper]

I just find out that the biggest German airlines want to establish the "2-Person-Rule" as it is already established in the US. I think this is a good idea BUT it is even a new risk because one more person has access to the cockpit. I don't know what the higher risk is: Extended suicide by the (co-)pilot or e.g., high jacking by a crew member? I think about it because I don't know if they do also such strict tests (e.g. psychologically or "ideological") for the crew members as they do for the pilots during the candidate selection process? But I trust they know what they do...

 

[C3PO]

A possible scenario:
The 1'st officer has some kind of medical problem and and wrongly self-diagnoses it as hypoxia. Just before he passes out he tries to reach lower altitude. Because of the symptoms (blurred vision, confused mental state, [_____]) he's unable to select a more sensible altitude.

It will be interesting to see the CVR transcript with a time-line. I'm a bit puzzled by the information from the various cress-conferences. First of all there was no mention of the captain trying to break down the door. That has been completely fabricated by the media. The captain knocks lightly on the door, calls for answer and the knocks louder. There's no word on how late in the descent this happens. The emergency code wasn't used because it triggers an alarm that would be on the CVR. Trying to break through a kevlar-reinforced door before trying the code makes no sense at all.

 

[Urwumpe]

The captain knocks lightly on the door, calls for answer and the knocks louder. There's no word on how late in the descent this happens. The emergency code wasn't used because it triggers an alarm that would be on the CVR. Trying to break through a kevlar-reinforced door before trying the code makes no sense at all.

There is one possibility - from outside, you can see that the door had been locked and entering codes into the keyboard is inhibited, likely a safeguard against terrorists trying to force flight assistants to enter the code.

 

[Keatah]

A human pilot can cross-reference multiple very noisy signal sources (eyes, ears, gauges n the plane, smell, "seat of your pants" and so on) and determine what is going on and how to get out of the situation.
A computer won't be able to solve an arbitrary sensor issue - if one gauge shows 10000 feet and the other shows 20000 feet, how would it know which is right?

The big problem is not to define the algorithm of flying a plane - that is trivial.
The problem is in determining where the plane is in the grand scheme of things, what state is it in, what works, what doesn't, what is going on, where to go, and so on.

It would have to contact ground radar. Failing that. It would use cameras and parallax. Failing that it could test the handling of the plane, a difference of 10000ft vs 20000ft would mean different flight characteristics.

But surely there'd be enough sensors on board where this wouldn't come into play.. IDK..

What worries me more with automation is that there will be too much cost cutting and not enough of the corner cases will be tested.

 

[kamaz]

No, you just encase the flight computers so they're inaccessible from inside the plane and can only be accessed on the ground, during maintenance.

I'm not talking about giving priority to the computer from the pilots. I'm talking about not having pilots at all.

So, you have traded the risk of a pilot going rogue for a risk of a programmer going rogue, or worse: a minimum wage maintenance worker going rogue. And neither programmers nor maintenance workers undergo psychological evaluations...

 

[DeskOrbinaut]

A possible scenario:
The 1'st officer has some kind of medical problem and and wrongly self-diagnoses it as hypoxia. Just before he passes out he tries to reach lower altitude. Because of the symptoms (blurred vision, confused mental state, [_____]) he's unable to select a more sensible altitude.

I'm also still with the unconscious-theory. Maybe a brain bleeding or something like that and disorientation as a consequence. It would not be the first death in an airliner cockpit.

The airplane was in cruise. So next phase of the flight would have been the descent. Maybe he thought he has to commence descent know while he suffered from severe disorientation. So he selected a lower altitude, and while he turned the knob he finally lost consciousness. Just like Urwumpe assumed earlier in this thread. The pilot was taking a leak. And when he returned the cockpit was silent already because his copilot was incapacitated while the airplane was descending. And et voilà, you have a very nasty situation developing.

 

[C3PO]

I looked at the Airbus video again and there isn't any audible alarm when the door is locked. If the breathing is audible on the CVR there is a chance that the lock switch is too.

 

[RGClark]

Co-pilot suffered bout of 'serious depression'
Published: 27 Mar 2015 09:16 GMT+01:00
http://www.thelocal.fr/20150327/germanwings-co-pilot-suffered-depression

Bob Clark

 

[ADSWNJ]

So, you have traded the risk of a pilot going rogue for a risk of a programmer going rogue, or worse: a minimum wage maintenance worker going rogue. And neither programmers nor maintenance workers undergo psychological evaluations...

That programmer risk has been around since the first digital automation arrived on the flight deck. AFAIK, there's never been a loss of a plane due to malicious code embedded in the control systems. (yet)

 

[Urwumpe]

Co-pilot suffered bout of 'serious depression'
Published: 27 Mar 2015 09:16 GMT+01:00
http://www.thelocal.fr/20150327/germanwings-co-pilot-suffered-depression

Bob Clark

Sorry, but that's what the British media speculates and other newspapers are happily copying. Neither the investigation nor the airline have ever published anything about the medical state of the co-pilot beyond the final "He was flightworthy without restrictions".

The Bild tabloid is referring to is a six year old note in a file of the German Federal Aviation Administration (LBA) that mentions possible psychological reasons for his pause from pilot training, but that citation has not been verified by others yet.

The police also reported today that "hints for a possible psychological illness" had been found in his apartment in Düsseldorf, but that's a very flexible term - police officers are no psychologists and to them, even talking with yourself is a hint for a possible psychological illness.

Stay critical - the easiest answer is not always the right one.

 

[Artlav]

Here is a beauty from there:

It also emerged on Friday that the pilot who was locked outside the cabin had used an axe to try to smash down the cockpit door.

This could not be immediately confirmed, but a spokesman for Germanwings confirmed to AFP that an axe was on board the aircraft.

So, there was an axe on board, therefore the axe was used to try to open the door.

All the media circus in one quote.

 

[garyw]

Here is a beauty from there:
So, there was an axe on board, therefore the axe was used to try to open the door.

All the media circus in one quote.

I have to dispute this. There is a fire axe that is kept on the flight deck. I doubt that there is an axe in the cabin!