Cockpit Door Discussion

[Urwumpe]

Heard that European safety org now considering implimenting the 2 person rule in the
cockpit

They did so. The EASA recommends this rule now officially for all airlines in Europe.

 

[DeskOrbinaut]

They did so. The EASA recommends this rule now officially for all airlines in Europe.

The problem just is that it won't work flawlessly/without a potential security gap on all aircraft models. The 737 cockpit for example is actually too small. Before a flight attendant can enter, the pilot has to leave. So there will be a moment, even if it's short, in which one pilot will be alone in the cockpit.

---------- Post added at 05:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:00 PM ----------

Just to get an idea how cramped the 737 flight deck actually is...

Remember that the simulator even has more room than the real thing since the wall behind the pilot seat is missing in the simulator!

 

[C3PO]

The problem just is that it won't work flawlessly/without a potential security gap on all aircraft models. The 737 cockpit for example is actually too small. Before a flight attendant can enter, the pilot has to leave. So there will be a moment, even if it's short, in which one pilot will be alone in the cockpit.

The door can only be locked while it's closed, so that is not an issue.

 

[DeskOrbinaut]

The door can only be locked while it's closed, so that is not an issue.

It is, because it can be closed by the pilot inside. 737 pilots already are worried respectively are questioning the new safety "feature" for the aircraft model.

 

[Urwumpe]

It is, because it can be closed by the pilot inside. 737 pilots already are worried respectively are questioning the new safety "feature" for the aircraft model.

No it can't. how can he close the door? Stand up as well, so that nobody is flying the aircraft?

 

[DeskOrbinaut]

No it can't. how can he close the door? Stand up as well, so that nobody is flying the aircraft?

Yes during cruise he can when the other pilot already is in the forward galley and the flight attendant did not yet enter the cockpit. Don't expect that any crew and any person will apply the rule just dead on time in everyday life.

You can find cockpit pictures on airliners.net taken during cruise while no one is on the seats at all momentarily...

 

[dman]

:thumbup:

ETA: Part of 9/11 itself didn't happen because the passengers on the fourth plane heard what happened to the other 3.

Even before 911 if someone got out of line passengers would kick their ass

Southwest Airline Flight 1763 - August 2000 (year bfore 9/11)

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwest_Airlines_Flight_1763"]Southwest Airlines Flight 1763 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

Passenger "subdued" the perp so violently that he died (suffocated)

Believe aircraft should carry stun gun in a locked safe acessible by cabin crew
through a code

We have something similar on our fire trucks called a "KNOX BOX" which contains master key to a business so can get inside in case of alarm

Before would bust in door - KNOX BOX is a small safe with master key, in our
truck have another safe with key to KNOX BOX . To get key has to enter code (in our case Social secuity #)

 

[kamaz]

No it can't. how can he close the door? Stand up as well, so that nobody is flying the aircraft?

It appears that the guy in the right seat can simply turn around and slam it shut with his hand.

And what is the problem with stading up? If the captain can leave, then the a/c is going to be on autopilot anyway.

 

[Urwumpe]

Yes during cruise he can when the other pilot already is in the forward galley and the flight attendant did not yet enter the cockpit. Don't expect that any crew and any person will apply the rule just dead on time in everyday life.

He can't.

He sits in a seat.
This seat is pushed forward.
The pilot wears his seatbelt.

Now reverse these three things for leaving the seat.

Sorry, but you are suggesting magic.

 

[kamaz]

I think I'm with DeskOrbinaut here -- if 737 pilots are saying this can be done, then it can be done.

 

[Urwumpe]

I think I'm with DeskOrbinaut here -- if 737 pilots are saying this can be done, then it can be done.

I disagree there - it requires actions that you can't just do without raising alert.

Also, how do you want to slam the door shut? Tie a rope around it so that you can pull it shut?

The French BAE is currently not ruling out a possible technical failure as cause of the accident. While the media already hitlerizes the co-pilot (don't look at the Bild-Zeitung today, I was seconds away from buying them all for burning them in front of the shop), at least the experts are making sure they are not judging too fast.

 

[DeskOrbinaut]

He can't.

He sits in a seat.
This seat is pushed forward.
The pilot wears his seatbelt.

Now reverse these three things for leaving the seat.

Sorry, but you are suggesting magic.

I think you never visited a cockpit.

Pilots are usually not wearing their seat belts during cruise (they already pull it off during climb for comfort). Wearing seat belts all the time is something you only see in movies. And pushing the seat back takes one second, if not already slightly pushed back for comfort. The airplane is not actively flown during cruise. The auto pilot flies. There are almost no duties except listening to ATC and watch the progress of the flight plan.

You can leave your seat within 3 seconds during cruise. Expect that 737 pilots know exactly why they are already questioning that safety measure for their 737 models. And there might be other as well. I guess the MD80 is rather cramped as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=uGxRJ6b7KL8#t=307

 

[Urwumpe]

I think you never visited a cockpit.

Wrong. I had even sat in cockpits of aircraft yet to be build. :lol:

Pilots are usually not wearing their seat belts during cruise (they already pull it off during climb for comfort). Wearing seat belts all the time is something you only see in movies. And pushing the seat back takes one second, if not already slightly pushed back for comfort.

Thats wrong - they are allowed to remove the seatbelts at times. Many will do. But in severe weather or during critical phases, the seatbelt is mandatory.

And if you need to reach the rudder pedals as pilot, you are NOT pushing your seat back.

 

[DeskOrbinaut]

Wrong. I had even sat in cockpits of aircraft yet to be build. :lol:

Thats wrong - they are allowed to remove the seatbelts at times. Many will do. But in severe weather or during critical phases, the seatbelt is mandatory.

And if you need to reach the rudder pedals as pilot, you are NOT pushing your seat back.

During normal cruise no one is wearing a seat belt. And no one is heaving a leak during severe weather or during critical phases of the flight.

And no one needs to reach the rudder pedals during cruise. Also, the rudder on an A320 is controlled automatically even during manual flight. You only need them during approach. In a 737 you only need the rudders during manual flight, which is for take off and landing only.

Again: 737 pilots know what they are taling about

 

[Urwumpe]

The speculation by the media is really getting out of control.

Now they are speculating about vision disorders AND depression. And then they place one of the lousy psychologists in front of the camera and let her talk about something she has no clue about (Those kind of psychologists, who think that scientific methods are only a hindrance and populistic hypotheses without empiric evidence a cash cow) .

---------- Post added at 07:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:10 PM ----------

Again: 737 pilots know what they are taling about

You obviously don't. And shut up talking about 737 pilots you aren't one, and if I would be asking the questions, the answers would be different.

On a 737, the standard procedure for handling an engine failure (like during a bird strike) involves what?

 

[DeskOrbinaut]

You obviously don't. And shut up talking about 737 pilots you aren't one, and if I would be asking the questions, the answers would be different.

I do very well know what I am talking about. Just like Mark Gilmour, who is airline pilot for ten years and is adressing exactly that issue:

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/twope...blem-in-airline-industry-20150328-1m9tk8.html

For domestic flying in aircraft such as the Boeing 737, the idea of requiring two people in the cockpit at all times is almost an impossibility. The cockpit is small - so small in fact that if a pilot wished to go to the lavatory, he or she would have to completely exit the cockpit before another crew member (presumably a flight attendant) could enter. Even then, the crew member would have no room.

The jumbling of crew members would create an enormous amount of hassle, and potentially be unsafe.

On a 737, the standard procedure for handling an engine failure (like during a bird strike) involves what?

During normal cruise there is no engine failure for 99,99% of a normal pilots career.

As for a bird strike: happens either during take off and initial climb or during approach. No one is leaving the cockpit during take off or during landing for heaving a leak. Heaving a leak takes place during normal cruise.

During cruise:

- pilots are usually not wearing their seat belts
- pilots don't have to reach the rudder pedals
- pilots adjust their seats for comfort mostly

 

[Urwumpe]

During normal cruise there is no engine failure for 99,99% of a normal pilots career.

Famous last words.


Also, Mark Gilmour is obviously not a 737 pilot in the USA, who are doing this procedure already for years without much noise.

 

[DeskOrbinaut]

Famous last words.


Also, Mark Gilmour is obviously not a 737 pilot in the USA, who are doing this procedure already for years without much noise.

Not every airline in the US is doing this procedure by the way.

The point is that for having 2 persons on the flight deck of a 737 at any time, one has to leave while the other one has to wait outside which is a potential security gap because there simply won't be 2 persons at any time in case one wants to leave.

It does work on wide-body airliners though, in which you can have a handful of people on the flight deck at the same time without issues (even + various camera equipment). Especially in the 747-4/8 or the 777 or the A340 or A380. But in small airliners it's a bit of a hustle.

 

[Urwumpe]

Not every airline in the US is doing this procedure by the way.

Ah... can you name one or two, with evidence?

 

[MattBaker]

Is it just me who thinks you're missing the point? Isn't it much more likely that somebody unwanted can get in with force than somebody needed not being able to return? It seems like if your aim is to hijack an airplane that's a point where you could do it.

Of course with that you'll never have a 9/11 scenario again unless pilots all need nature breaks at the same time but still, sounds like an opening a hijacker might as well use, practically making the whole reinforced doors useless anyway.