Are We headed into a new Cold War

[Thunder Chicken]

Now we are, as usual, quickly heading to a silly argument about who is more evil.

Well, telling the populace how dastardly and evil the other side is is the first step required of an evil power to convince them that attacking the other is a good idea, right? No one ever uses nukes against angels, only on demons.

Looking at Putin and Bush, I have to confess that I don't see much evil in either one of them. Putin seems like an extremely sharp fellow and he is acting from his viewpoint for the best interests of Russia (in his view). Bush is similarly acting from his viewpoint in the best interests of America (again, in his view). However, all of these nuances of western/Russia interactions are lost on Bush, who just treats Russia as we treated the USSR, because that is all he knows and it is easy.

 

[Andy44]

cui bono

A new cold war would be good business for big defense contractors, and for the government agencies that built up their power and budgets during the last cold war.

John Quincy Adams once said long ago that America does not go abroad in search of monsters to destroy, but he was expressing more of a hope than a reality. When the Soviet threat faded, terrorism came along to fulfill our need for someone to fear, and now that people may be getting tired of the terror thing being in the news, along comes Fox News drumming up alarm about Russia, and of course you've got Iran to lose sleep over.

So pay your heavy taxes and pull down your pants at the airport, or else the Bad Guys'll git ya! How many times can we fall for this used car salesman stunt?

 

[SiberianTiger]

Looking at Putin and Bush, I have to confess that I don't see much evil in either one of them. Putin seems like an extremely sharp fellow and he is acting from his viewpoint for the best interests of Russia (in his view). Bush is similarly acting from his viewpoint in the best interests of America (again, in his view).

I believe that both of them must cool down a bit ASAP. During the Cuban Missile Crisis the words said by Khruschev in the most critical moment to the Party leaders were simple and plain: "So what, we are ending this up in a bad way?" That was a will-forming statement that allowed to do several steps back. I hope that the contemporary leaders are endowed with a fraction of Khruschev's prudence.

And after all, to bigger extent in the inveterate democracy, to lesser extent in the limpy juvenile democracy with a birth injury inflicted, there exists the power of the parliament. They are what determines the laws and critical changes in a country's international politics. So not everything boils down to personalities.

 

[Urwumpe]

Well, the Russian parliament just announced that they want independence for Abkhazia and South-Ossetia. If this happens, it would be interesting to see the reactions in North-Ossetia and Chechnya.

I think, the Russian parliament was never as strong again, as before the 1993 coup attempt. Now, it is more an appendix to the president and his prime minister... or the other way around.

 

[SiberianTiger]

Well, the Russian parliament just announced that they want independence for Abkhazia and South-Ossetia.

Then you must agree it was a democratic decision.

If this happens, it would be interesting to see the reactions in North-Ossetia and Chechnya.

Not sure about N.O., but I believe that Kadyrov-lead group of teips (tribes) are happy with the status quo. They have also been sweetened up with the recent disgrace of Yamadayev from a competing teip, who was the commander of Chechen batallion during the S.O. operation. This guy is now wanted.

I think, the Russian parliament was never as strong again, as before the 1993 coup attempt. Now, it is more an appendix to the president and his prime minister... or the other way around.

See my reference to the birth injury.

 

[Urwumpe]

Then you must agree it was a democratic decision.

Yes, but still, I think it is the wrong parliament to ask. South Ossetia is a self-declared government with a territory, but without the rest which belongs to a country. No justice, no police, no parliament. It is still a miracle how they managed to held elections there. Sure not on their own.

Pretty much similar to the Gaza strip.

 

[SiberianTiger]

Yes, but still, I think it is the wrong parliament to ask. South Ossetia is a self-declared government with a territory, but without the rest which belongs to a country. No justice, no police, no parliament. It is still a miracle how they managed to held elections there. Sure not on their own.

Pretty much similar to the Gaza strip.

I think that the plebiscite held in South Ossetia at November 11, 2006 was clear enough in its results: 98% were against staying in Georgia. Of course there always may be procedural objections...

The Duma was just voting for recognition of independence.

PS: I may have doubts about reality of the winning fraction of Medvedev's votes in the Russian presidental election, or Putin's party's (especially), but this plebiscite sounds fair to me. Let's face it: there's a nation-wide vendetta going on. It's really good to keep them fenced apart.

 

[Urwumpe]

PS: I may have doubts about reality of the winning fraction of Medvedev's votes in the Russian presidental election, or Putin's party's (especially), but this plebiscite sounds fair to me. Let's face it: there's a nation-wide vendetta going on. It's really good to keep them fenced apart.

Currently yes - but of course, the question is: How much of this vendetta is fueled by Russia in the last years? And how well will the independence go, when Russia looses interest in South-Ossetia? It will be a economic trouble spot, with or without independence.

And I think personally: The current Russian idea of fencing them apart is a pretty bad idea. The current DMZ around South Ossetia is nearly the whole western half of Georgia. And who protects Georgians inside these DMZ then from South-Ossetian "freedom fighters"? Russian soldiers? A good laugh.

 

[SiberianTiger]

Talking about reality, I don't think that further development of the situation there is possible without an international military involvement, so you can relax. I also doubt that the two republics will get recognized as UN members anytime soon. My opinion may be quite contrary to one of the majority.

 

[Urwumpe]

Talking about reality, I don't think that further development of the situation there is possible without an international military involvement, so you can relax. I also doubt that the two republics will get recognized as UN members anytime soon. My opinion may be quite contrary to one of the majority.

I think that, the door for such a solution is currently closed - the UN should have been on board already in 1991, and I don't know which reason was there to don't do that.

What I find personally worse, talking about reality, is the lack of a plan for the future of these regions.

 

[Ghostrider]

the so-called Kosova Liberation Army won a huge PR war, pulling the wool over the eyes of the west, and were really drug-running terrorists.

They still are, and drug-running is not the worst business they're in: extortion, human trafficking, slave trade, you name it they have it. And now they've got a sovereign nation to work from, since no matter who will be in power in Pristina, the UCK is calling the shots. Enjoy.

 

[Urwumpe]

They still are, and drug-running is not the worst business they're in: extortion, human trafficking, slave trade, you name it they have it. And now they've got a sovereign nation to work from, since no matter who will be in power in Pristina, the UCK is calling the shots. Enjoy.

The UCK also won the lawyer war - they have the international law on their side (integrity of sovereign states can be violated when a minority is violently suppressed - and a working government exists already in the separatist region).

 

[n122vu]

Russian President Says He's Not Afraid of Cold War

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,410507,00.html

but is also not seeking one either.

 

[SiberianTiger]

Russian President Says He's Not Afraid of Cold War

Does he ever mind to share some of his bravery with HIS people? And by the way, explain publicly what all this up is about. So far Medvedev only spoke on TV with a justification of Abkhazian and South Ossetia's independence recognition.

 

[Urwumpe]

Well, for playing good cop, bad cop, Medvedev should know what his role is... BTW, did somebody hear anything of Putin lately?

Last news from Germany was, that Russia managed to increase the pressure to include Ukraine in the EU...

 

[SiberianTiger]

Well, for playing good cop, bad cop, Medvedev should know what his role is...

Relax, nobody is appreheded yet. I have a different idea about his role. A scapegoat.

BTW, did somebody hear anything of Putin lately?

Nope, not a word in media.

 

[Bullethead]

I actually hope we get another Cold War. Life was so much simpler back then. There was Us and Them, everybody was clearly on 1 side or the other, and the threat of nuclear holocaust world-wide tended to keep most regional conflicts from getting too out of hand. Thus, there was more peace world-wide than there has been since the Cold War "ended".

People do not get along. We're genetically incapable of it. We've only had roofs over our heads the last 5000 years or so, which time has been far from peaceful. And that's at best nothing but lipstick on a pig anyway, no more than the outmost layer of hair on a raging beast whose ancestors spent a couple million years clawing, biting, spearing, and burning their way up the foodchain to become the ultimate predators.

Given human nature, therefore, it seems the only real way to keep peace is to hold a gun to everybody's head. Nobody will be happy and most will be quite resentful, but at least most folks will restrain their more extreme behaviors somewhat more than they do without such coercion.

 

[n122vu]

I can understand having troops on the borders of the breakaway regions. I'm ok with that if they are trying to recognize their independence. I'd be willing to concede tro troops in those locations. But what gives Medvedev the right to say he has freedom to place troops and checkpoints anywhere in Georgia? Especially near the western ports? And if we want to give munitions to Georgia to help it defend itself, so what? They are allies of the west and allies do such for one another. I really hope this doesn't escalate over us sending aid (or weapons or whatever it is) to Georgia and someone jumps the gun and fires a shot or confronts US aid-deliverers at a port or 'checkpoint' and blows it out of proportion. The most important thing right now IMHO is for all parties involved to keep a level head and keep the safeties on their weapons.

 

[dougkeenan]

People do not get along. We're genetically incapable of it.

People are more than their genetics. Some have intelligence.

 

[Missioncmdr]

People are more than their genetics. Some have intelligence.

To quote Men in Black:

"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it."