Science Artificial Gravity

Allan

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I was watching SciFi Science last night. It was the episode where Michio Kaku was devising a starship that would deliver a human to Alpha Centuri within 1 lifetime (so the passengers can actually see their destination before they died of old age).

http://science.discovery.com/videos/sci-fi-science-videos/

One aspect covered was the need for Artificial gravity. Kaku contended that artifical gravity could be created on his craft by including a rotating ring. But would the gravity created by that rotating ring extend itself to the entire craft? I'm inclined to think it wouldn't.

What if the ship had two or three rings at differnet points? What if they rotated at differrent speeds or differrent directions? I assume speed would directly influence the amount of centrifugal force generated and thereby create more gravity.

Interesting stuff.
 
All parts of the spacecraft will be subject to centripetal acceleration, but those nearest the axis of spin will be subject to less, whereas those farthest (i.e. the gravity ring) will be subject to more.

If you're only spinning the gravity ring and not the whole ship, the same applies, but only to the spun ring. There are of course engineering challenges relating to constructing a partially spun spacecraft (moving seals, attitude control, structural integity etc).
 
Gravitation does not emerge just because something rotates. "Gravitation" by a rotating spacraft does only apply to people and equipment connected to the spacecraft I think. I.e. you have to be constantly "strapped" to somewhere in order to experience centrifugal force or centripetal force actually. Otherwise the spacecraft might rotate around you. Maybe similar to this:


We have to get rid of current technology and introduce way faster propulsion technologies. I claim that otherwise we won't explore the universe manned, and not even the solar system manned.
 
So the rotation of the ring(s) would have to be moving pretty fast to exert about 10 pounds of gravity at its axis? Then as you move away from the axis (toward the actual ring itself) you experience more gravity? But how would that apply to the entire craft? He has a starship that had a rotating ring about 3/4 aft. The axis would be at the point where the ring crossed around the ship, correct? would that mean as you moved forward or aft of the rings exact location that you lose gravity? Would multiple rings be required to provide gravity throughout the starship or perhaps a rotating tube which completely encloses the craft from stem to stern? I'm alittle surprised at the lapse in that show.

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Airsimming, I agree you'd have to be strapped to be "part of the object" and move in unison. Did you see that video for the starship on that link? Kaku was proposing an antimatter engine as a practical reuseable energy source to offer tremendous power. Very dangerous but very cool too.
 
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Then as you move away from the axis (toward the actual ring itself) you experience more gravity?

It appears so, because:

F = (m * v^2) / r
F = ma
a = v^2 / r

v = 2*PI*r / T, where T is constant for all distances, since this is a solid structure.

a = 4 * PI^2 * r^2 / ( T^2 * r ) = 4 * PI^2 * r / T^2

So because r in the upper part (forgot the word), the further you are, the bigger the acceleration.
 
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The opposite is true.

a = v^2 / r

The linear velocity is constant ( v = 2*PI*r / T, where T is the same on all distances ), and since r increases, the inward acceleration (the gravity) decreases.


Huh?!

I think you got stuff mixed up.

Your linear velocity isn't constant, your angular velocity is. Let's mark angular velocity as w. The formula for centripetal acceleration is then given as

a = w^2 * r. That's angular velocity squared multiplied by radius. The acceleration gets HIGHER when your radius increases, not lower.

The center of the ship would not experience much gravity, but the passengers in the ring would.


Oh and...

Allan said:
So the rotation of the ring(s) would have to be moving pretty fast to exert about 10 pounds of gravity at its axis?

10 pounds of gravity?

You mean 10 m/s^2 of acceleration, right? If so, it'd have to spin pretty fast. The whole point of the ring is that the ship can spin slow and the radius can be greatly increased.
 
I apologize, perhaps my laymans understanding is inaacurate in a fundmental way. An Axis is a centeral line that bisection a two dimensional body, yes? Linear velocity would then be the motion along that line. The direct center of a ring surrounding a space craft would be the axis point, right?

If thats the case, anything forward or aft (still using the shows starship as a model) from the axis would lose its graivty as the distance from the axis increased? in order to provide gravity for the entire craft in that show a rotating tube would need to completely enclose the craft?
 
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No offense intended...but Thank God for you math guys. My hats off to you. I'm good at quite a few things but calculating the mysteries of the universe with numbers and equations is not one of them. As a writer, I feel very fortunate to have stumbled upon this community and to have even a passing association with you all.
 
And I'm happy to hear from somebody who can't do the math but in the same time doesn't say that those who can are just nerds and all that!
 
RisingFury,

So the ship in his example isn't fixed, it rotates slowly? That makes perfect sense why there was just the single narrow ring. Something about it just struck me as odd and compelled me to ask. Thanks.

---------- Post added at 07:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:36 PM ----------

I'm not saying I couldn't do the math per se, I'm saying knowing things to the level that interests you is not interesting to me. I'm sure given enough time and information I could train my thought process accordingly. I'd really rather not. :) thanks again.
 
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Ah, sorry about that ...

You know, I like it, because this way you can prove things :)
 
No worries I knew what you meant. My ego just had to say something. :)
 
RisingFury,

So the ship in his example isn't fixed, it rotates slowly? That makes perfect sense why there was just the single narrow ring. Something about it just struck me as odd and compelled me to ask. Thanks.

---------- Post added at 07:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:36 PM ----------

I'm not saying I couldn't do the math per se, I'm saying knowing things to the level that interests you is not interesting to me. I'm sure given enough time and information I could train my thought process accordingly. I'd really rather not. :) thanks again.


Yes, the ship has to rotate slowly, so that the passengers are being "thrown" into the outside wall. You know how your clothes spin in the washing machine and get "sucked" to the outside wall? The same effect is desired in the ship.


@ Enjo, yea, I noticed you edited your post after I replied, but I figured I'd leave the explanation anyway.
 
Did you see that video for the starship on that link? Kaku was proposing an antimatter engine as a practical reuseable energy source to offer tremendous power. Very dangerous but very cool too.

I sadly can't watch the video. I can only listen. I can watch the advertising though, but when the video starts it stays black.

You know how your clothes spin in the washing machine and get "sucked" to the outside wall? The same effect is desired in the ship.

Too bad I didn't see the video. But when I consider something like a washing machine, I also have to consider gravity. Because the clothes get sucked to the outside wall only because they lay on the bottom of the barrel, which is not the case in zero gravity.

Another big difference is that to jump up in a rotating ship would be very much different than in gravity. Once you jump up, the centrifugal force no longer applies to you at that moment.

Also, such rotating ships usually are pretty big. I've read that if it has 1.000 meters in radius, it would have to rotate once every 63 seconds, which means that the outer walls would rotate at a speed of 360 km/h. Not only that you need a lot of fuel to introduce that rotation, if you don't have a different propulsion technology by then. But those ships have to be very robust and asymmetries in the mass distribution have to be avoided. Even if all this would work perfectly, you still would have to put it into space, i.e. lift all the thousands of tons up there and assemble the whole thing. It is a dream pipe logistically and financially, isn't it? ;)

This is why I say we won't ever explore the universe that way. Living in zero g for a while is unimaginably less expensive than to build and operate a rotating ship. We have to revolutionize our propulsion technologies, i.e. decrease travel time, well, in an imaginary reality. Even if we would manage to travel by the speed of light, which is impossible anyway, the universe still would remain unimaginably big. To reach something that might be similar to our solar system/earth, depending on where it is you might have to travel for thousands of years still.

You may call me narrow-minded, but I claim that the human enterprise of manned space exploration will peak and end on Mars and/or some asteroids or maybe a flyby on another planet of our solar system at the utmost. I know, some innovator made similar claims regarding our todays technologies. But the universe is neither a rail or road, nor the Atlantic Ocean ;) There is a big difference, literally.
 
Another big difference is that to jump up in a rotating ship would be very much different than in gravity. Once you jump up, the centrifugal force no longer applies to you at that moment.

You're still spinning. Unless a force acts against you to stop you, you will still "travel along" with the centrifuge normally and fall back down to the ground.

Even if a tennis ball, for example, were introduced into the centrifuge, not spinning, the airflow would cause it to speed up and eventually fall to the "floor".

I've read that if it has 1.000 meters in radius, it would have to rotate once every 63 seconds, which means that the outer walls would rotate at a speed of 360 km/h.

I hope you mean a radius of 1 kilometer; a radius of 1 meter is far too small for anything useful.

You may want to try out SpinCalc. It gives 0.94 RPM for a 1 kilometer radius centrifuge to produce 1 g.

Not only that you need a lot of fuel to introduce that rotation

I would actually like to see the math behind the propellant requirements for this. Low thrust but high efficiency thrusters (like ion drives or even arcjets) are probably the answer.

But those ships have to be very robust and asymmetries in the mass distribution have to be avoided.

I don't think they should be that sensitive to asymmetries in mass distribution, but such things should certainly be taken into account. Perhaps the pumping of water around the structure could facilitate balance; water is needed anyway for drinking, washing and perhaps radiation shielding.

Even if all this would work perfectly, you still would have to put it into space, i.e. lift all the thousands of tons up there and assemble the whole thing.

I think this is where a ring incurs a whole lot of mass for nothing. You can do the same (although you will have less area) with two modules spinning on a common axis. If bound by a tether, the centrifuge system suddenly becomes very light. You can even use your propellant system as a counterweight, when you are not thrusting. This works well when the vehicle is a "tensionary" design; i.e. the engines pull the vehicle along behind them.

Obviously a large habitat for many hundreds or thousands of people is going to have a high mass. But it does not have to be overly massive.

It is a dream pipe logistically and financially, isn't it? ;)

Not quite.

Living in zero g for a while is unimaginably less expensive than to build and operate a rotating ship.

Living in zero g for too long will cause your muscoskeletal and cardiovascular systems to atrophy. Unless there is a way to mitigate this, sending your crewmembers on missions longer than a year (or several months, for missions where they will have to engage in strenuous activity at the destination) will not be advantageous for the success of a mission.

travel by the speed of light, which is impossible anyway,

The ability for faster than light travel has been seriously researched.

If it is at all possible, you would have to avoid causality violations, and most proposed methods require large amounts of energy to work (as well as purely hypothetical "negative matter"). Nevertheless it is an unlikely possibility.

I know, some innovator made similar claims regarding our todays technologies. But the universe is neither a rail or road, nor the Atlantic Ocean ;) There is a big difference, literally.

The difference is that today the "insignificant innovators" know enough about what we're dealing with to make serious studies of about how to explore and live in space. Even "far fetched" concepts such as fusion propulsion, or extremely large "space habitats" are based on technologies and scientific knowledge that we have today.

Space may be bigger than an ocean, but our ships are just a tad faster.

By several km/s. :lol:
 
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You're still spinning. Unless a force acts against you to stop you, you will still "travel along" with the centrifuge normally and fall back down to the ground.

In case you mean that you still follow a curved path if you jump up, I think you are wrong. Mass does not follow a curved path without centripetal force. As soon as you jump up, you are actually weightless again until you hit the ground which forces you to follow the curved path of rotation. Depending on your jump, and the size and shape of the station, you might even hit the ceiling first and lose control, maybe like a cat in washing machine :lol:

And the smaller the station, the smaller the comfort due to high rotaion, if you want to maintain 1g. If it is only 10 meters in diameter, which already is a lot, you won't feel fine anymore. Even 100 meters of diameter will be still pretty uncomfortable.

The whole thing is nice fiction, but really nothing more.

Even if a tennis ball, for example, were introduced into the centrifuge, not spinning, the airflow would cause it to speed up and eventually fall to the "floor".

A feather even more, and a human body certainly less ;)

I hope you mean a radius of 1 kilometer; a radius of 1 meter is far too small for anything useful.

I meant 1 kilometer. 1 kilometer consists of 1.000 meter in German or 1,000 meter in English :)

You may want to try out SpinCalc. It gives 0.94 RPM for a 1 kilometer radius centrifuge to produce 1 g.

Which is about 63 seconds for a complete revolution, and a velocity of 360 km/h on the outside (or rather 356 km/h) as I wrote ;)

I would actually like to see the math behind the propellant requirements for this. Low thrust but high efficiency thrusters (like ion drives or even arcjets) are probably the answer.

I don't think that something like ion drives are the answer to introduce a rotation of a station which consitst of thousands of tons of mass. Also, the station doesn't only has to rotate, it should also leave earth orbit to begin its journey ;)

I think this is where a ring incurs a whole lot of mass for nothing. You can do the same (although you will have less area) with two modules spinning on a common axis. If bound by a tether, the centrifuge system suddenly becomes very light. You can even use your propellant system as a counterweight, when you are not thrusting. This works well when the vehicle is a "tensionary" design; i.e. the engines pull the vehicle along behind them.

A system bound by a tether also has to be robust, and so certainly won't be "very light" anymore.

Living in zero g for too long will cause your muscoskeletal and cardiovascular systems to atrophy. Unless there is a way to mitigate this, sending your crewmembers on missions longer than a year (or several months, for missions where they will have to engage in strenuous activity at the destination) will not be advantageous for the success of a mission.

Which is why I wrote that we have to revolutionize our propulsion technologies. If we manage to reach Mars within 2-3 weeks, the crew will be just fine. No rotatinal pipe dream required. But traveling to Mars within 2-3 weeks also is a pipe dream because the next issue would be a tremendous acceleration. You want to do it slowly? Maybe this would increase the travel time already significantly...

The ability for faster than light travel has been seriously researched.

Indeed. And in agreement with the theory of relativity, all observations do show that particles and information can't be faster than light.

If it is at all possible, you would have to avoid causality violations, and most proposed methods require large amounts of energy to work (as well as purely hypothetical "negative matter"). Nevertheless it is an unlikely possibility.

As I wrote: impossible ;) (at least for now)
 
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You guys are awesome!!!!!! I have a wealth of information to base my writing on and a degree of understanding that I didn't have yesterday to help me along....thank to you all!!!

FYI, I didn't have to rewrite, just some mild revision. Structurally my paltry logical assumptions held true!

Interesting stuff!!!!!!!!
 
Depending on your jump, and the size and shape of the station, you might even hit the ceiling first and lose control, maybe like a cat in washing machine

Seems likely. I agree that your body doesn't follow a curved path, yes. However, the GROUND beneath you still does! And since you still got your forward momentum, you will be carried forward in a straight line while the ground comes up to meet you, following its curved path. You could jump higher than on earth, because your upward momentum wouldn't be slowed down by gravity. You'll probably even have to be carefull to not hit the ceiling, but if you do it right, you will meet the floor again (or, more apropriately, the floor will meet you).
 
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