Let's hear it for nuclear power

First prove that you have 24,000 deaths exclusively by CO2. Will be pretty hard as long as the CO2 content of Earths atmosphere is far less than 8% (No need to tell you, as submariner you should know the limits).

Will be far harder than changing the odds even more... Ever heard of the "SDAG Wismut?" Was the Uranium mine in the middle of the GDR, has many deaths related directly to the contact with high concentrations of uranium - lung cancer caused by radiation poisoning was second in the number of death causes, first had been the "work accidents". The mine was the third biggest producer of uranium in the world until it stopped operations in 1990.
 
First prove that you have 24,000 deaths exclusively by CO2. Will be pretty hard as long as the CO2 content of Earths atmosphere is far less than 8% (No need to tell you, as submariner you should know the limits).

Will be far harder than changing the odds even more... Ever heard of the "SDAG Wismut?" Was the Uranium mine in the middle of the GDR, has many deaths related directly to the contact with high concentrations of uranium - lung cancer caused by radiation poisoning was second in the number of death causes, first had been the "work accidents". The mine was the third biggest producer of uranium in the world until it stopped operations in 1990.

Again,
CO2 is not the only pollutant that coal plants release.
It's the fine particulates that cause asthma and kill.

Lung cancer associated with uranium mines are due to radon. This hazard is easily mittigated by proper breathing protection.
How many dead uranium miners are there in comparison to the number of dead coal miners? Especially since in terms of energy density, uranium has coal beat by six orders of magnititude.
 
People talk about the dangers of nuclear waste, have you ever put a geiger counter next to coal ash?
 
SL-1 was meant as prototype for small reactors to power DEW line stations, it was strictly for power generation. It was just made too simplified.

Yes, but even with its poor design the damage, including a meltdown, was contained and the reaction halted by the loss of moderator. It killed the 3 men who were operating it, comparable to a wood-burning steam engine accident.

Hogan's argument about the low probability of a serious accident doing catastrophic damage to the surrounding area holds true in this case.
 
I'll admit that mankind does have some effect (or is it affect? I keep forgetting) on the environment. But one volcano eruption can put more SO2/CO2/NOx and other gasses into the atmospere than the entire US fossil production line can over the span of years (decades even). If you really want to clean up the air, start with cars. Once again the exhaust gasses from coal fired power plants cannot match what is exhausted out a taipipe all up and down the motorways.
BTW, we are at 32.4% power...
 
Where do you work, PhantomCruiser? And what's your job, if I may ask? (What's your dosage lately?)
 
No. SL-1 was an Army reactor. This discussion is about civilian reactors built strictly for power generation, with no military side purposes.

Gee...thanks for the reply CHUCK!:P

I saw no specific mention earlier in this thread that the discussion was being limited to civilian reactors.

OBTW...I know SL-1 was an Army reactor...we HAD to study that incident during Navy nuclear training.
 
I work (work is a loose term, lets say I get paid by...) for the Tennessee Valley Authority, Watts Bar Nuclear Power station. I've been shifted over to a foreman's position, so my dose rate has dropped significantly. I generally pick up 20-25 millirem per year (IF we have an outage) and only then it's IF I have a job in containment.
The RadCon people are very, very, very good about controlling dose in the plant. So far this year I haven't picked but 3 millirem. If I keep the foreman spot I may not get any next year.
I've probably gotten more exposure this year by mowing the lawn than I have at work. And I know I've gotten far less than people who work in the agricultural fields... I was surprised to see how much dose you can pick up from fertilizer.
The medical field picks up lots of dose too.

Edit- Oh, I am an instrument mechanic. Not a bad gig, and the pay is MUCH better than when I worked for GE, or the NAVY.
 
I saw no specific mention earlier in this thread that the discussion was being limited to civilian reactors.

Well, the article cited in the OP is about power generation, and Hogan specifically calls out the military nature of Chernobyl's design (really, of anything the Soviet Union designed) as one of the reasons for its accident.

---------- Post added at 11:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:07 PM ----------

NukeET, question: the wiki article on SL-1 says the other two guys (the ones not pinned to the roof) were "mutilated", but it doesn't say how they got that way. Do you know?
 
Something to keep in mind about the Chernobyl accident is they were coerced into trying an experiment that the system wasn't designed for. The management at the site agreed to the test after several other plants told them to go p*ss up a rope (or at least something similar, and in Russian). I don't recall the exact experiment, but I think I recall that it involved using the power generated by the turbine as it coast down, some of that residual "power" was tied to some of the safety systems.
We have some real good information about the accident, but I never heard about it until I got here. I'll see if it's "for official use only" or what...
I may have some pretty good links for you guys if I can find them. The NRC has some good stuff on their site, so does INPO and WANO.
 
I'm not talking about CO2 alone.
The fine particulates coal plant's putt up the stack kill.

That pollutants do cause health effects of course is not arguable. But you put in natural trace gases in your comment, which are not pollutants. Greenhouse gases are natural non-toxic gases that are essential for life on our planet.

Globally, the nature puts about 17 times more CO² into the atmosphere per year than humans do. It comes out of bodies by 10 to 100-fold concentrations than that we measure within the atmosphere. You drink it by every glas of cola/fizz and your body releases it every moment by each breath anyway. Also methane is anything but toxic, just like water vapor as well.

---------- Post added at 06:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:48 AM ----------

Something to keep in mind about the Chernobyl accident is they were coerced into trying an experiment that the system wasn't designed for.

Also, the kind of reactor that had been used for Chernobyl (graphite) is not in use for any German nuclear power plant for example. I don't know about the US but the UK does run the last graphite reactors within the EU I think. This is somtehing people often forget or don't even know whenever they talk about the danger of nuclear power and trying to use Chernobyl as an example, which is actually not a valid example in my point of view. Chernobyl sadly is a good example of human stupidity.
 
We have some real good information about the accident, but I never heard about it until I got here. I'll see if it's "for official use only" or what...
I may have some pretty good links for you guys if I can find them. The NRC has some good stuff on their site, so does INPO and WANO.

It should be freely available, all the accident information is public. Ironic considering the thing was Soviet ;)

But one volcano eruption can put more SO2/CO2/NOx and other gasses into the atmospere than the entire US fossil production line can over the span of years (decades even)
Not true. This paper describes it in some detail (for CO2):
http://tinyurl.com/l4mdfk
(edit)
Also, the kind of reactor that had been used for Chernobyl (graphite) is not in use for any German nuclear power plant for example. I don't know about the US but the UK does run the last graphite reactors within the EU I think.

I don't think graphite is a problem as long as you design the reactor well. Chernobyl had other problems (primarily associated with the coolant) that were exacerbated by the use of a graphite moderator. It's not inherantly unsafe, though.
The UK runs the last graphite moderated reactors in Western Europe, but I think soem fo the Eastern Blok countries still run them as well, never sure if they're in the EU or not though..
 
Holding Chernobyl as an argument against nuclear power today is like using Vajont as an argument against hydroelectric plants - even worse because while we still build dams like the one at Vajont, plants like Chernobyl are not being built anymore.
 
Hogan's argument about the low probability of a serious accident doing catastrophic damage to the surrounding area holds true in this case.

well, what do you consider catastrophic? We had only two major reactor accidents (Chernobyl and Three Mile Island), but also hundreds of minor accidents, which also released large amounts of radioactive material, but didn't result in massive damage to the reactor.

Also we have illegal waste disposal of many reprocessing plants and unless a miracle happens, we will have nuclear waste in the groundwater around Asse II in less than 20 years - including 28 kg of Plutonium inside it, legally allowed had been only 6 kg inside it, it is likely that more Plutonium can be found if the barrels are more closely examined... when the illegal dumping of nuclear waste started there (it was only for researching storage and not for full storage operations), the records became pretty inconsistent...

Radiation is a slow killer and I would consider it already catastrophic, if the released radiation increases the lifetime cancer risk of citizens around by more than 3% - the limits for reactor workers, who willingly take this risk.

---------- Post added at 11:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:57 AM ----------

I don't think graphite is a problem as long as you design the reactor well.

It is a problem. Water becomes less effective as moderator, if you heat it by increased power output, reducing the reaction rates. Graphite looses only a bit of effectivity when heated, far far less than the increase in power output that causes the heating. Also, Graphite vaporizes at almost the temperatures as the fuel elements, the whole reactor will get damaged at the same time by temperature.

You can operate such a reactor safely, if you know the dangers, but you have almost no margin for errors. That many such RBK reactors had been used and only one had a serious accident also speaks for the skills of the operators, but still, it is a dangerous reactor design.

Water is the better solution, but that gets you new dangers...though much less than the dangers of graphite.

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I don't know about the US but the UK does run the last graphite reactors within the EU I think.

No, Lithuania did it, they had to close the Ignalina Block 1 as condition for entry into the EU. But you can get the best technical documentation of this type of reactor from the power plant operators.

http://www.iae.lt/inpp_en.asp?lang=1&sub=234

http://www.lei.lt/insc/sourcebook/toc.html
 
It`s not like only nuclear waste can kill someone or pollute environment if mishandled. Here in my country we have several in soviet times built abandoned liquid chemical waste storage ponds that are leaking and polluting groundwater making water in nearby wells unusable and no one does any serious effort to clean the mess up, it even very rarely gets mentioned in mass media. I bet if we had even minor accident in our only nuclear waste storage site it would get huge media attention and outcry from greens.

---------- Post added at 09:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:20 AM ----------

No, Lithuania did it, they had to close the Ignalina Block 1 as condition for entry into the EU. But you can get the best technical documentation of this type of reactor from the power plant operators.

http://www.iae.lt/inpp_en.asp?lang=1&sub=234

http://www.lei.lt/insc/sourcebook/toc.html

It`s a shame they have to completely shut down the Ignalina till the end of this year, my country also gets large part of our electricity from Ignalina and most likely outcome is that we will build a 500 MW coal plant which pollute environment much more than nuclear plant.
 
The thing with nuclear waste is that it origionaly came from the ground, as long as we place it back there once were done with it while taking things like underground water into account it will be more or less a safe as any natural deposit of radioactives.
No, Uranium ore and trace amounts of Plutonium 94 are taken from the ground. Nuclear waste is MUCH more radioactive AND toxic. It's definitely less safe, nor "more or less" as safe. Nuclear waste is not just man-made chemicals, it's man-made elements that don't occur naturally on Earth.

200 tons per year of the most tightly controlled substance in the world.
If it's so tightly controlled, how did 2 rods of fuel go missing for over 15 years WITHOUT ANYONE NOTICING? Sure, they were probably still in the pool, but no-one knew.

http://www.forbes.com/2001/01/08/0108disaster.html

The US Department of Energy lost enough plutonium in Hanford to make over 50 Nuclear bombs.

www.hanfordnews.com/static/includes/documents/lostplutonium.pdf

This is just some of the stuff we know got "lost", and look how long it took to figure out it was missing. You have to wonder how much has been lost that we don't know is missing.

As for the "coals worse" crowd, consider how many more coal plants are in use, and how long they've been used, and the disparity of health risk begins to shrink significantly. We are also much more aware of the long term risks associated with coal, nuclear plants haven't been around in significant quantity long enough to really know.

So how do you feed a countries thirst for energy?
Only about 2,400 of the 80,000 dams in the US are used to generate electricity. Many of those non-producing dams were built in the post war era, and are in need of major repairs and/or replacement. Converting those existing dams would be much cheaper than building new nuke plants, be safer, cheaper to operate, and add no risk (all risks associated with a dam failure already exist - the upgrades would actually make the dams safer).

In order to make a dirty bomb you need to steal the nuclear waste, which already isn't that easy to begin with, and then work with it which is another can of worm. Chemical weapons are much cheaper and you can make them with very little infrastructure.
It doesn't take much "infastructure" to make a dirty bomb, if you can lay hands on the radioactive material (to be honest, it's more likely to come from hospitals than from reactors) all you need are a homemade detonator, homemade explosives, and some duct tape.

Terrorists want to create terror. A chemical weapon will create terror for a short time, but after a couple hours you know the extent of the damage. Biological warefare causes more terror. Days, even weeks, can pass before the spread is stopped and you can't be sure the guy next to you isn't contageous. Radiation weapons are more terrifying. Years, even decades can pass before you know if you are a victim, or what the effects will be. You live in dread, wondering if it's safe to have children, or if you will get a cancer you wouldn't have otherwise, etc. You never know, and nothing is more terrifying than the unknown.

And I feel that Chernobyl proves another point. Murphy's law. And I know I've seen a "DeMotivational" poster that said "No matter how stupid the idea really is, someone in a position of power will think it's a good plan."

Please read the whole article. He counters (nukes?) every one of your arguments.
I did read the entire article. He addresses my arguments, but doesn't actually counter them. He just makes vague generalizations (10 feet of dirt lower the radiation emitted by 10%. What kind of dirt? What wavelenght of radiation? Some wavelenghts can barely penetrate paper, others can pass through several feet of lead. Not to mention that the dirt itself would become radioactive from exposure so I suppose we just through another ten feet of dirt on it every 20 years or so?

I especially liked the part about how people in Colorado get more cosmic radiation, and if you account for some of the causes (but not all) of similar diseases the numbers make it appear that a certain level of radiation is actually good for you. By the same argument, the bacteria contained in the trace amounts of rat feces found (and allowed by the FDA) in peanut butter could be shown to be good for your immune system, so we should just let the rats poop even more in our food.

Keep in mind that Hogan was not a physicist, he was an electrical and computer engineer. He also doesn't believe that there's any proof for evolution, that the Holocaust didn't happen the way they say it did. While in this article he points out the greenhouse gasses as being a point against coal, in a previous article (also for LRC) he claims that global warming is beneficial, so shouldn't we be building more plants by his reasoning?
 
No, Uranium ore and trace amounts of Plutonium 94 are taken from the ground. Nuclear waste is MUCH more radioactive AND toxic. It's definitely less safe, nor "more or less" as safe. Nuclear waste is not just man-made chemicals, it's man-made elements that don't occur naturally on Earth.

If it's so tightly controlled, how did 2 rods of fuel go missing for over 15 years WITHOUT ANYONE NOTICING? Sure, they were probably still in the pool, but no-one knew.
Again, name a member of the public injured by used nuclear fuel.
The US Department of Energy lost enough plutonium in Hanford to make over 50 Nuclear bombs.
And this has what to do with commercial power plants?
And Again, again, name one member of the public injured by spent nuclear fuel.
As for the "coals worse" crowd, consider how many more coal plants are in use, and how long they've been used, and the disparity of health risk begins to shrink significantly. We are also much more aware of the long term risks associated with coal, nuclear plants haven't been around in significant quantity long enough to really know.
The US produces ~60% of our electricity fom coal, 20% form nuclear. This is a factor of 3 to 1. The ratio of people killed by coal pollutants to people killed by nuclear power is significantly greater than 3 to 1.
 
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