Sticks and stones

For a long time I thought that fascism is synonynom for nazism (for obvious reasons) so when I finally 'discovered' that it's supposed to describe something else I was quite interested in the term for some time.
Yet fascism is a still vague term for me.

My opinion is that fascism is fine as historical term but when applied in broader sense it's more of an insult than ideology.


The definition you offer is extraordinarily parochial in a historical sense. For glaring example, before 1980 or so, no one would have thought to include "sexism" in a definition of fascism. Frankly, the definition sounds to me like a list of everything that the head of the literature department in a modern American university doesn't like. :lol:
Fully agree, that was weird unfocused list.
 
What I find intriguing is how both sides of the political aisle (at least in the US) seem to think that the other side dominates the media. I see a couple factors that could be behind this:

1) The corporate aspect of the media makes it anathema to the left, as already mentioned.

2) The moral rot put out by the entertainment media makes it anathema to the right, especially those of us on the religious right.

3) The media doesn't mind making people mad if it actually increases viewership. If a scandal turns up on either side of the aisle, the media will take whatever approach drags it out the longest and creates the most furor, because scandal = juicy story = viewership. The media's general pattern is to bleed either side equally, so that a) both sides feel wounded, which makes them less inclined to rational thinking and more inclined to reacting in ways that produce stories, and b) each side smells the other's blood, and takes the offensive, which tends to create stories.

4) The fact that people know that the media does tend to try to manipulate things to boost ratings, and the fact that nobody is ever totally politically neutral, makes either side of the political aisle suspicious that those in charge of the media are trying to manipulate the opinions of the populace.

5) The corporate level of the media tends to be right wing, but the actual editors and journalists tend to be left wing. Taking the broad (and not entirely true, but not entirely false) assumption that the left tends to be collectivistic and the right tends to be individualistic, we can deduct the left looks at the upper (corporate) level of the media and sees right wing politics, while the right looks at the lower (individual) level of the media and sees left wing politics.

6) The media has a strong bias. This bias is pro-media. Part of the outworking of this bias is that, since their business is information, they want to control the flow of information (not *necessarily* to feed some bias into it. A big part of it is just to make money off information, biased or not). They don't want government censorship, because that diminishes their control of information. Nor do they want the flow of information to be to free, because this also diminishes their control. This interacts with both the leftist and rightist philosophies about information control to make either side rather angry.

7) Having been convinced that the media is their enemy for the reasons listed above, both sides look for collusion between the media and the other side, and ignore the help the media may have tossed their way.
 
I think it's pretty simple. Most of the reporters tend to be left-liberals, which does tend to bias their reporting, but the reason their reporting stinks is because they are all pro-state, pro-government. They tend to take the official word as fact and are too lazy to check up on it, especially when it comes to overseas stuff in war zones. And they never rock the boat too much, even for their hated Republicans, because they don't want to lose their prized access to the White House and other halls of power.
 
In my case, I'm far more worried about the prevailing force of dumbing down in the media than in the political bias thereof. The media has always been fond of the two-word slick answer in preference to any serious thought, but what's alarming is that this superficial response to complex issues is now considered acceptable in schools (or shuld i say, skools) and colleges of higher(?) edyukayshun. Now Wikipedia articles can be quoted as some kind of authoritative source, Fox News documentaries are considered reliable evidence, and that's when anyone bothers to back up their arguments at all. Usually a strong enough "feeling" is sufficient.

This kind of thing - in which our kids are taught that it's OK to be dumb - allows any amount of pernicious nonsense to be perpetrated by any kind of political extremist or religious sect, and their "feelings" have to be respected. God forbid - literally - that anyone speak out against the spread of ignorance.

This intellectual weakness makes reasonable decent people highly vulnerable above all to religious dictators. Islam wants to dictate to you how you live your life - either you are faithful and you obey the mullahs in every detail or you are a non-believer and should be exterminated. What could be more fascist than that? In the 21st century?

I've been reading Dawkins' "God Delusion" recently and I've been highly shocked by how far things have gone in the US. The full-on assault by creationists on the great structure of logic and empiricism that brought us to where we are now is, to me, the greatest danger facing us today, far more than any amount of global warming or renascent cold war, and clearly much more dangerous than the acts of any terrorist group.

Al-Quaeda, doing their worst, could NEVER bring the civil society to a halt. The creationists could, for they fight with society's own weapons - money, media and litigation. The United States was founded by those who understood the insidious power of religious dogma and superstition, and did what they could to stop it influencing the civil state. So far, it's worked, providing a gleaming example of what a state can do with the power of a free market, free speech and free (private) religious belief, carefully kept out of the public sphere. The most attractive characteristic of the American culture during the 50s-60s was belief in itself and its own possibilities. Now instead of belief in its own vigour, the US society seems to want to believe in its own unworthiness.

I've probably mixed up my ideas a little too much here, 'cos I'm short on time and have to get the kids to school. I'll be back later to try to spell out what I'm on about.

Meantime, whatever your political ideology or personal philosophy, please support Richard Dawkins' foundation in its fight against the forces of organised religion and their attempt to reduce us all to mental slavery once again.

www.RichardDawkinsFoundation.org
 
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It seems the Britt article had the intended effect.

I don't actually believe the US is a fascist state any more than we're a theocracy. I do think participating citizens should always be vigilant. And like a theocracy, fascism isn't something we should ever try (flashback to the attempted FDR coup).

In terms of media consolidation, I find Andy44's latest post to be most aligned with my own views. Investigative journalism has been reduced to a few selected posts, and if you've read Woodward's latest stuff...well, need I say more?

News based solely on press releases is a bit like paying to get advertisements.

I would add a couple of other unfortunate, if not disgusting effects of media consolidation: Reality TV, Infotainment, and widespread bandwagonism. Maybe some of you appreciate this stuff, but I don't think it helps an already apathetic audience.
 
Lingo & Andy, interesting comments on the media in your country. I really don't see an overall political bias in the Australian media. I must admit to being more trusting of our state-owned (but not directly government controlled) ABC & SBS than I am of the commercial networks. As Lingo points out, the commercial media is strongly biased towards itself rather than to the left or right. The state-owned media is less so. In fact the ABC go to great pains to demonstrate that they are not biased. Some points from their "Service Commitment":
The ABC is committed to

  • treating audience members with fairness, courtesy and integrity;
  • respecting legitimate rights to privacy and confidentiality;
  • welcoming and responding to complaints;
  • providing accurate information;
  • ensuring relevant staff are provided with information about audience response to programs.
I couldn't even find a similar document for our commercial networks. If they exist, they are not readily available.

As far as reporters go, I feel that we have a pretty even mix of leftists and rightists.


-----Posted Added-----


Investigative journalism has been reduced to a few selected posts...
Again, state-owned media to the rescue. Have a look at the Gold Walkleys. For journalists from a TV background, the state-owned media scores 7 vs 2 for commercial stations. In the "Investigative Report" category it is something like 6:1 in favour of the state-owned media.
 
Most of the reporters tend to be left-liberals,...


One theoretical question: Can you be a good journalist without adapting some traits of left-liberals? Could a square conservative republican be a good journalist?

I think, this question is not really unimportant, because if you can't be a good journalist without adapting liberal traits, it would mean, that all bashing of the media as liberals and biased is actually attacking the concept of journalism and a free media itself.

(And honestly, I am sure many US citizens will disagree, but I have a hard time consider FOXNews for example free media)
 
One theoretical question: Can you be a good journalist without adapting some traits of left-liberals? Could a square conservative republican be a good journalist?

I think, this question is not really unimportant, because if you can't be a good journalist without adapting liberal traits, it would mean, that all bashing of the media as liberals and biased is actually attacking the concept of journalism and a free media itself.

(And honestly, I am sure many US citizens will disagree, but I have a hard time consider FOXNews for example free media)

You (almost) never cease to amuse me, Urwumpe. You're so cock-sure of the virtue of the left and the evil of the right that it's actually amusing to me. I'd say 80% of the time I laugh and only 20% of the time I want to bash your brains out.:rofl:

Seriously -- PJ O'Roarke. OK? Or, more seriously, William F. Buckley. Or Ronald Bailey. Or John Stossel. With the exception of (possibly) Buckley, you've probably never heard of these people. There's a reason.

Guys like Moyers will complain about media consolidation on the one hand, while complaining about the wild nature of the internet on the other. Funny they never see the irony.

It's the "Guardian Mentality" -- and I don't mean the Guardian newspaper in Britain, although that paper has the Guardian Mentality. No, I mean what Plato meant by "the guardians" in The Republic.

For people who are so all fired-up enthusiastic about "democracy" as a fundamental political value, folks like Moyers really don't trust the majority in America at all, because deep down inside, they know that the majority is "desperately clinging to religion and guns."

In fact, what Moyers et al. mean by "democracy" is what Lenin meant by it: "democratic centralism," where the "center" is "the vanguard," i.e. them.
 
(And honestly, I am sure many US citizens will disagree, but I have a hard time consider FOXNews for example free media)
OK, Seriously. Has anyone who says this ever watched the news part of fox news? (This means Hannity and Colmes and O'Reilly Factor don't count as they are opinion shows)

I guess its supposed to be a funny to bash fox news, but its actually quite similar to other news programs. In a few cases I've seen it as less partisan.

Meh, internet forums never were about being accurate, just making the poster feel good. :dry:
 
It's all George Bush's fault.
Sadly, I don't think this makes the discussion any less juvenile.

EDIT: GregBurch: You know I respect you and agree with you more often than is healthy. Just sometimes you enjoy the easy post a little too much. :)

I didn't wake up in a bad mood or anything. I guess my BS tolerance is a little low now. :coffee:
 
Sadly, I don't think this makes the discussion any less juvenile.

It is totally juvenile -- just like the reflexive attitude toward the Bush Admin. my watchword -- "It's all George Bush's fault" -- is intended to mock.

Sorry -- it's become a habit for me. When my wife and I are watching the news and some whiny-baby is crying about something terrible that's happened to THEIR interest group, we both chime in with this.
 
OK, Seriously. Has anyone who says this ever watched the news part of fox news? (This means Hannity and Colmes and O'Reilly Factor don't count as they are opinion shows)

I guess its supposed to be a funny to bash fox news, but its actually quite similar to other news programs. In a few cases I've seen it as less partisan.

I hate to think about what shows Fox News is less partisan than. I watched it whilst I was in the USA, mainly as I'd heard such bad stories about it.
The jokes about Fox are, of course, hyperbole, but I think they conceal an important truth: Fox news is not anywhere near a clear and unbiased source of information, it's incredibly one sided.
That isn't really a problem unless Fox News is your only source of information, in which case you can get a very skewed view of the world.
Same goes in reverse too, and I'd never trust just one newspaper or TV news show for all my information. The ONLY way to get a good feel for things is to have multiple sources.



Greg, seeing as the other thread was closed (Insert liberal complaints about free speech here.:@) I'll answer your BBC point here.

Firstly, BBC World news is entirely separate from BBC UK, the editorial teams are different, the journalists are different and the on-air talent is different. I think quite a lot of people who watch BBC UK (I can get it here in Denmark, and watched it a lot when I lived in Britain) would be shocked at just how biased BBC World is.
Yes, BBC UK has a decidedly liberal stance, but it's nowhere near as far from center as the World version is, nowhere near.
 
My experience with politics is that it is a matter of convenience, therefore there is no good and evil. So good and evil is often used for propaganda as a convenient tool to manipulate people.

Another use of manipulation is the use of labels. I have found capitalists and socialists who want human welfare, but they fight each other because they start a flame war because of the usage of labels with insulting content.

China has a 4000 years old culture, but as a country it does not have even 2000 years of existence. Hitites won a war over Egypt and still they were gone. So the time we waste with politics is time we do not waste understanding our common ground, as citizens of a planet that has no visible boundaries from space.

We humans are experts in dividing, and as I see it that causes people to have a divided view of reality. Black or white, left or right, friend or foe. Such divisions makes people to lose the chance to understand how wasteful it is to fight people who could be great and supportive friends of yours, based on beliefs, labels, politics, or anything that divides us.
 
My experience with politics is that it is a matter of convenience, therefore there is no good and evil. So good and evil is often used for propaganda as a convenient tool to manipulate people.

Be careful with moral relativism. It can be used to justify anything. Are things and people labeled Good or Evil unfairly/incorrectly? Yes. But saying there is no Good or Evil may have some unintended consequences.

Its not easy to influence anyone's philosophy as its more an opinion/belief and is generally sustained by anecdotal evidence rather than anything more scientific.
 
Yes, BBC UK has a decidedly liberal stance, but it's nowhere near as far from center as the World version is, nowhere near.

Which brings me to what I wanted to post about the original topic of this thread: trying to define a common language when talking about politics. There were some thoughts about what we call left-wing or right-wing (weird non-descriptive names btw.), and I wondered whether people would place liberalism as a left-wing or a right-wing idea.

Maybe most people in the US would call it a left-wing idea, but here many right-wing parties call themselves liberal. I've also seen diagrams with liberalism as a second dimension, creating a surface where every party has a left/right coordinate and a liberal/non-liberal coordinate.

To place myself on this scale, I'd have to make a distinction between economical liberalism and cultural liberalism. On the scale of cultural liberalism I'd call myself very liberal, while economically, I'm mildly non-liberal in my own eyes. I'd say that economical non-liberalism (as I see it) is related to socialism, and therefore clearly left-wing. But cultural liberalism seems to be independent from the left/right scale, at least in the Netherlands. There seems to be a light tendency towards neo-conservatism (which I consider to be culturally non-liberal) in the right-wing parties, but in the largest of them, liberal ideas seem to be dominant.

So, it seems that liberalism is another word that can create a lot of confusion.
 
Be careful with moral relativism. It can be used to justify anything. Are things and people labeled Good or Evil unfairly/incorrectly? Yes. But saying there is no Good or Evil may have some unintended consequences.

Its not easy to influence anyone's philosophy as its more an opinion/belief and is generally sustained by anecdotal evidence rather than anything more scientific.

Precisely. Politics is very relative. It has been though history. It changes on convenience of politicians. I would mention examples, but if I do, people from many countries might say I am bashing their countries.

People hate revisionist history, and therefore people can't see the absolute relativism of their politicians. I won't be the person who will wake them up from their daydreaming fairy tale.
 
I like cjp's reminder about the original intent of the thread. Does anyone have a good working definition for "liberal" and "conservative"?

I've found myself wondering if liberalism in the states hasn't really been reduced to brain-dead consumerism. Remember Sen. Patty Murray's call to "just go shopping," as a response to the 2001 attack?

The root of the word suggests otherwise, but certainly both these terms are hugely contested. Maybe we should direct our attention here next?
 
Liberal, conservative, those are labels.
Sometimes you have liberals in disguise and sometimes you have conservatives in disguise.

Daniel Ortega is supposed to be communist, and he signed CAFTA. Which side is he?

China is supposed to be communist and it is now very capitalist with a communist regime.

So in politics, labels can be misleading, in my opinion.
 
Ahh .. one of my all time favorite subjects for a good rant – the hijacking of the term “liberal” by the left in American politics. Few examples of Orwellian linguistic ju-jitsu can compare to this one in terms of audacity and impact. Coupled with this is the way in which the word “conservative” has come to mean a combination of semantically unrelated items. Such a big subject … where to begin? How did the word “liberal” come to be identified with some of the most illiberal ideas in politics?

Once upon a time, the word “liberal” had a meaning that had a sensible and historically cogent connection to the Latin root from which it was derived, and from which the English word “liberty” also comes – libertas; freedom. “Liberals” were people who valued liberty, in particular and in the historical context in which the word was coined, “liberals” were people who held to the ideas of the Enlightenment and placed individual liberty at a very high value. In those days, “conservatives” were opposed to liberals, because they opposed the values of the Enlightenment, and sought to retain what they saw as pre-Enlightenment virtues, such as martial honor and the tie between traditional hereditary privilege and political power. This use of the terms made sense.

But over time, as the “cutting edge” of “progressive thought” moved “beyond” the Enlightenment to the wonderful world of Romanticism and the pseudo-science of Marxism, the “progressives” hated to lose the sheen that came with the word “liberal.” The label “liberal” had been synonymous with the most advanced thinking of its day. As political thought fragmented into the post-Enlightenment mish-mash of Rousseau’s evil spawn, the Romantics, and the even more noxious ideological swamp of Marxism, the meaning of the term “liberal” became clouded.

Interestingly, in Europe, those who embraced Romantic and Marxist political thought were more ready to let the “liberal” label go. But not so in backward America, where it took longer for these wonderful new ideas to gain adherents. Well into the late 19th and early 20th century, a liberal in America was a liberal – someone who valued individual liberty. Only in the panicky reaction to the Great Depression did that uniquely American blend of romantic populism and thinly-veiled Marxist ideology known as the New Deal happen. And the New Dealers wouldn’t and didn’t let go of the “liberal” label. The people who wanted to maintain Enlightenment values were “conservatives.” Those who didn’t embrace the new, new, new New Deal were regressive, holding onto a dead past. The “liberals” had an open mind to these new ideas – as they had 200 years before to the ideas that had overturned the ancien regime. So they thought of themselves.

Complicating things was the legacy of the incomplete social revolution that had begun only partially with emancipation of Negro slaves during the Civil War. To their credit, the northern and urban wings of the New Dealers were the (often reluctant) mainstream conduit for the impetus to complete that social revolution – one that was inherently “liberal” in the original sense of the word. Ironically, of course, the most recalcitrant “conservatives” on this issue were members of the same political party, the Democrats. Republican politics were largely skew to the issue of race relations in mid-20th century American politics (although not completely – Earl Warren was, after all, a staunch Republican). This was an accident of history brought about by the complete absence of any Republican power-base in the former slave-owning southern states after Reconstruction.

So the final, decisive turn of events that caused the shift in meaning in the American usage of the word “liberal” was the fact that the extremely left-leaning New Dealers were also the members of their party who, as a matter of history, brought about the adoption of “civil rights” as a Democratic Party issue. Having embraced this quintessentially and classically liberal cause, they became “the liberals” in American politics.

But of course, along with this came 150 years of post-Enlightenment “progress” – the rejection of moral values as real things, antipathy to the bourgeoisie, and the foundational Marxist dogma of the labor theory of value and class theory. All of this was accelerated in the cultural over-clocking of the 1960s, and the rise of identity politics as part of the “68 New Left.” By 1975 or so, the transformation of the meaning of the term “liberal” in the American political vocabulary was complete: As far as property rights and many other issues of individual liberty, the old liberals were now the new conservatives, and the new liberals were the proponents of identity politics and a state that knew no bounds when it came to the power to enforce payment for the “progressive” remaking of American society with such wonderful and invasive massive experiments like the welfare state, “urban renewal” and affirmative action, all very “illiberal” policies in the traditional sense of the word.

In order to regain political power, the traditionally boring Republican party of Barry Goldwater had to make the infamous devil’s bargain with the religious right and the rest, as they say, is history.

So – what is a real American “liberal” to call himself or herself? If Comrades Nader and Kucinich and Boxer call themselves “liberals,” then the word has truly become an Orwellian linguistic trick. “Libertarian” is the closest we have to a term that has the meaning that the term had 80 years ago. But that word has become problematic for me, personally, for reasons I won’t go into here, but that I’ve hinted at elsewhere on the forum. “Minarchist” is accurate, but a linguistic ticket to having to make a lengthy explanation. Unfortunately for me, the theft of the term “liberal” has left me, personally, with no satisfying term to describe my political philosophy, if I’m to be understood.
 
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