The USA Patriot Act

[GregBurch]

Man, this response is actually embarrassing. Have you actually bothered reading the Patriot Act?

Do you believe in the First Amendment? Can't have it both ways.

From the tone of your comment, I'm guessing you might not be willing to (because it's so obvious that only an idiot wouldn't get it), but could you 1) point to the specific provision of the Patriot Act that is an infringement of the First Amendment and, if it's not too much trouble, 2) point to a specific case where a specific person has had their 1st Amendment rights infringed in a specific way as a result of enforcement of the Patriot Act?

 

[Urwumpe]

GregBurch: How about repressive measures against Muslims? Everybody knows the case of Yusuf Islam... AKA Cat Stevens, who appeared on a no-fly list, created by the means of the US PATRIOT act... and got detented only because his name was on such a list.

 

[Hielor]

From the tone of your comment, I'm guessing you might not be willing to (because it's so obvious that only an idiot wouldn't get it), but could you 1) point to the specific provision of the Patriot Act that is an infringement of the First Amendment and, if it's not too much trouble, 2) point to a specific case where a specific person has had their 1st Amendment rights infringed in a specific way as a result of enforcement of the Patriot Act?

I believe nomad23 was commenting on joeybigO's question as to why people who write articles like the one quoted can't be canned under the Patriot Act, and had nothing to do with the Act itself.

 

[GregBurch]

GregBurch: How about repressive measures against Muslims? Everybody knows the case of Yusuf Islam... AKA Cat Stevens, who appeared on a no-fly list, created by the means of the US PATRIOT act... and got detented only because his name was on such a list.

You mean this guy?

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Islam Denied Entry: Cat Stevens’ “Peace Train” of Islamic Hate Derailed[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]September 22 , 2004[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]A guy who wrote and performed a song called “Peace Train” could never be a terrorist, right?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Wrong.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Why was the “artist” formerly known as Cat Stevens denied entry to the U.S., yesterday?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Maybe it has something to do with Yusuf Islam (his latest name du jour) a/k/a Stevens a/k/a Stephen Georgiou’s ties to terror groups. Or maybe it has something to do with Stevens’ obsession with spreading hate around the world.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]While the world knows him as the guy who sang “Peace Train,” the real tune Stevens/Islam has been singing reeks of fatwas, anti-Semitism, HAMAS front-groups, and Al-Qaeda fundraisers.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Here are some of Mr. Peace Train’s “peaceful” activities:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Cat Stevens supports murdering critics of Islam.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Remember Salman Rushdie, Muslim author of “The Satanic Verses,” who dared criticize Islam? Remember how Iran’s late Ayatollah Khomeini issued a fatwa calling for the vigilante murder of Rushdie? Islam/Stevens/Georgiou supported that death sentence.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In Yusuf Islam’s “Wild World”, you have the freedom to write terribly annoying songs. But dare write critically about the religion of head-choppers, and your head is destined for Chop-Chop Square, with Mr. Peace Train’s full support.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Cat Stevens hates Jews.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]He’ll apparently ride the “Peace Train” only if there aren’t any Jews or other “infidels” anywhere near the tracks. Yes, in 1988, the singer of “Peace Train” authored an “informational pamphlet,” called “Eyewitness,” containing these peaceful words:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]“The Jews seem neither to respect God nor his creation. Their own holy books contain the curse of God brought upon them by their prophets on account of their disobedience to Him and mischief in the earth. We have seen the disrespect for religion displayed by those who consider themselves to be 'God's chosen people.'...There will be no justice until all the land is given back to its rightful owners... Only Islam can bring peace back to the Holy Land.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Cat Stevens’ HAMAS Buddies.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]It’s not just what Islam ne Stevens wrote in the anti-Semitic pamphlet, it’s for whom he wrote it: the Islamic Association for Palestine (IAP), a HAMAS front-group with ties to Al-Qaeda. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Founded with a $490,000.00 check from the personal bank account of indicted HAMAS political director of Moussa Abu Marzook, IAP distributed the HAMAS charter, official HAMAS intifada communiqués issued from Gaza, and HAMAS glory records, which are tributes to HAMAS’ "violent successes" and lists of all the infidels it murdered. IAP also produces HAMAS training and recruitment videos. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]IAP's finances and board were entwined with those of the Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development, which in December 2001, the U.S. government shut down and froze the assets of, saying that it finances HAMAS. IAP is a defendant in a lawsuit filed by the parents of David Boim, an American teenager murdered by HAMAS. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In December 2001, federal authorities deported IAP leader Ghassan Dahduli on immigration violations. Dahduli's name was found in the address book of Wadih El-Hage, Osama bin Laden's former finance chief and personal secretary, who was convicted in the 1998 bombings of two American embassies in east Africa.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Not surprising, Cat Stevens won’t condemn HAMAS.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Cat Stevens & Al-Qaeda[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In May 1999, Stevens/Islam was the keynote speaker at the “Second ‘United for Al-Quds Conference.’” Al-Quds is the Islamic name for Jerusalem. The conference was sponsored by the “Who’s Who” of America’s radical Muslim groups which support terror and refuse to denounce HAMAS and Hezbollah (which murdered over 300 American marines and civilians in the 1980s, while they slept).[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]One of the main sponsors of this conference was American Muslims for Global Peace and Justice. The group, which spearheads the Muslim boycott of Starbucks (because its CEO is Jewish), was founded and run by the late Mahboob Khan, who raised money for Al-Qaeda at the Santa Clara mosque he founded and headed. In the late ‘90s, Khan twice brought Al-Qaeda deputy Ayman Al-Zawahiri, himself, into the US on a fake passport, to raise the money at the mosque. (Incredibly, Khan’s son, Suhail Khan, is a Bush political appointee and chief legal counsel to the Federal Highway Administration, where he has access to transport schedules for major weaponry and hazardous materials.)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]True to form, Stevens, in his keynote speech at the conference, entitled “Jerusalem: The First and Last Scene of Faith’s Struggle” (a speech about Jihad for Jerusalem), said the Jews “were lowered to abject levels of disgrace and dishonor.” [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Cat Stevens’ Map of Hate[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Cat Stevens’ map of the world looks just like Al-Qaeda’s, HAMAS’, and Islamic Jihad’s map of the world. His website’s map lists every country – EXCEPT, there’s no Israel. Instead, there’s a new country, called “Holyland” in its place. Click on the blank map on Cat Stevens’ personal website to reveal the hidden state names on his “revised” planet. Hmmmm . . . . Let me guess: the new Prime Minister of “Holyland” is name Abu-something or other. Stevens calls this “small kindness.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Cat Stevens & Terrorist Cronies, Ad Nauseam[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In September 1999, Stevens delivered the five-time daily call to prayer at the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) annual conference. At the event, he and NBA Star Tariq Abdul-Wahad attacked America’s freedoms. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Saudi-funded ISNA is at the forefront of promoting extremist Wahhabi Islam and owns and controls at least 27% of America’s mosques and many American Islamic schools through an ISNA subsidiary, the Islamic Trust. Stevens was invited for this honor by ISNA’s then-chief, Muzammil Siddiqi, a prominent, radical Muslim who openly supports martyrdom, jihad, and making the US a Muslim country. Siddiqi opposes Muslims serving in the U.S. military and used ISNA to raise money for HAMAS’ Political Director Marzook and the Islamic Jihad terrorist group.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Cat Stevens HAMAS Buddies, II[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Stevens was the featured main speaker at a Virginia fundraiser for the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) on November 11, 1996. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Former FBI counterterrorism chief Oliver “Buck” Revell calls CAIR a HAMAS front group. CAIR got its seed money from IAP (and therefore, from HAMAS), as well as its founder/executive director, Nihad Awad, who was an IAP employee. Awad, an avowed HAMAS supporter, compared Hezbollah to Patrick Henry and the founding fathers. After the 9/11 attacks, CAIR spokesman Ibrahi Hooper refused to specifically denounce Bin Laden. CAIR designated the conviction of the “blind cleric,” Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, in the 1993 World Trade Center bombing as a hate-crime. Like IAP and ISNA, CAIR strongly supports HAMAS and Hezbollah and receives significant Saudi funding. Its spokesman, Hooper, and Board Chairman, Omar Ahmad, support making the United States into a Muslim country.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Now CAIR is returning the favor -- whining about Stevens’ refused U.S. entry, just like they kvetch over every deported terror supporter. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Cat Stevens Favorite Radical Cleric[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Then, there’s Cat Stevens’ favorite radical Islamic Cleric, Sheikh Hamza Yusuf, whom he met with less than a month after the 9/11 attacks. Yusuf, with whom Stevens is close, was under investigation at the time for this speech two days before the attacks: “This country is facing a terrible fate. ... This country stands condemned. It stands condemned like Europe stood condemned because of what it did — and lest people forget that Europe suffered two world wars after conquering the Muslim lands.” Unfortunately, President Bush invited him to the White House, where he was when FBI agents knocked on his California door.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]At a 1995 ISNA conference, Yusuf delivered this speech: “The Jews would have us believe that God has this bias to this little small tribe in the Middle of the Sinai desert and all the rest of humanity is just rubbish. I mean that this is the basic doctrine of the Jewish religion and that's why it is a most racist religion."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Clearly, Cat Stevens is not your garden-variety has-been ‘70s pop singer. Nope. He’s your garden-variety has-been ‘70s pop singer turned Muslim turned Islamo-fascist. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]“They have hijacked my religion,” Stevens told Britain’s “The Independent,” after 9/11. But, it sounds like he’s hijacked his religion. Or, maybe, it has hijacked him.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Fortunately, the Department of Homeland Security is deporting Cat Stevens/Yusuf Islam on a “Peace Train” back to where he slithered from.

Now, if only they would send his radical Muslim friends in America along with a one-way ticket.[/FONT]

Wake up.

 

[Urwumpe]

Wake up.

Back to you: Do you believe anything, which gives right-wing idiots a warm feeling?

Just to give people an idea, what you just copied unverified without mentioning the source: http://www.debbieschlussel.com/columns/column092204.shtml

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debbie_Schlussel

Remember: It is never a good idea to recite a fanatic jewish polit blogger with anti-islamic agenda, before you made the journalist job, she should have been doing before. Even if she is an attorney.


Most of the stuff is known to be quoted out of context (the Rushdie quote as an answer to a hypothetical question during an interview), dominated by doctrine (Hamas is no terror group, if Fatah is also not), and sometimes just invented ("United Al-Quds" conference in 1999, right in the moment of the Palestine women conference, she is the only source in the internet for this conference, EDIT: No, is not*).

There is a reason, why Yusuf Islam is a respected and awarded person in the UK, even after he converted to Islam. He may have the typical shortsightedness of converts, when it comes to criticism of his chosen religion, but it is pretty hard to make him a radical. He is sure not free of errors.

* When searching more coarse, you will find this:
http://www.wrmea.com/backissues/0799/9907104.html

While the conference existed in Santa Clara, California (Hardly a Al-Quaida meeting) , his keynote is quite different to the version, Schlussel quotes.

“As we look to Jerusalem and the world today, we see Muslims being subjected to the same persecution and exile as Jews. We need only look at Kosovo to see this reality…When the Jews placed their love of life and their national identity above that of obedience to God and His prophets, they were lowered to abject levels of disgrace and dishonor. What has the Muslim world become today other than a muddled array of national identities, waving flags and playing anthems, watching the proud display of soldiers marching by, while children cry from Gaza to Pristina and beyond?”

 

[GregBurch]

Back to you: Do you believe anything, which gives right-wing idiots a warm feeling?

Just to give people an idea, what you just copied unverified without mentioning the source: http://www.debbieschlussel.com/columns/column092204.shtml

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debbie_Schlussel

Remember: It is never a good idea to recite a fanatic jewish polit blogger with anti-islamic agenda, before you made the journalist job, she should have been doing before. Even if she is an attorney.


Most of the stuff is known to be quoted out of context (the Rushdie quote as an answer to a hypothetical question during an interview), dominated by doctrine (Hamas is no terror group, if Fatah is also not), and sometimes just invented ("United Al-Quds" conference in 1999, right in the moment of the Palestine women conference, she is the only source in the internet for this conference).

There is a reason, why Yusuf Islam is a respected and awarded person in the UK, even after he converted to Islam. He may have the typical shortsightedness of converts, when it comes to criticism of his chosen religion, but it is pretty hard to make him a radical. He is sure not free of errors.

Sorry, I know who Debbie Schlussel is. And Cat Stevens is filth. Hamas is absolutely a terrorist organization. Your readiness to believe otherwise will be the death of you.

You're young. You're going to live long enough to know whether I'm right or not. I won't be around. But when the storm clouds turn to rain, try to remember you were warned to get a roof over your head.

 

[dougkeenan]

How long are you thinking until you're not around and proven right or not? Can't be years - decades?

 

[Urwumpe]

Sorry, I know who Debbie Schlussel is. And Cat Stevens is filth. Hamas is absolutely a terrorist organization. Your readiness to believe otherwise will be the death of you.

So, let me interpret you ad absurdium: It is OK to be a hate preacher, when you preach hatred against the right group? And who does not support this hatred, is an enemy? And if you preach hatred, it does matter, to use correct information as you don't need a rational reason to hate? So pretty much hating for the sake of hating?

You're young. You're going to live long enough to know whether I'm right or not. I won't be around. But when the storm clouds turn to rain, try to remember you were warned to get a roof over your head.

Wow, how fatalist. Now the question is, what do you think, is it worth for you, to be right at all? As lawyer, you should be well aware, that being right, is not the same as getting your right.

My hands were steady
My eyes were clear and bright
My walk had purpose
My steps were quick and light
And I held firmly
To what I felt was right
Like a rock

Well, we may be living on the same planet, but sure we don't have the same horizon...

 

[GregBurch]

So, let me interpret you ad absurdium: It is OK to be a hate preacher, when you preach hatred against the right group? And who does not support this hatred, is an enemy? And if you preach hatred, it does matter, to use correct information as you don't need a rational reason to hate? So pretty much hating for the sake of hating?






Wow, how fatalist. Now the question is, what do you think, is it worth for you, to be right at all? As lawyer, you should be well aware, that being right, is not the same as getting your right.

My hands were steady
My eyes were clear and bright
My walk had purpose
My steps were quick and light
And I held firmly
To what I felt was right
Like a rock

Well, we may be living on the same planet, but sure we don't have the same horizon...

Whatever -- you're so open-minded your brains have fallen out. You don't know a threat when you see it. You've bought the "Islam is a religion of peace" crap hook line and sinker. No problem. Like I say -- it's your future that's at risk. I've had a fantastic life. By the time the crap really hits the fan, I'll have moved on.

I get the impression that you think history is over -- that it's a closed book; that somehow the world has fundamentally changed and that, if we can all just talk to each other, everything will be alright; that the possibility of terrible violence done in the name of irrational ideologies is a thing of the past.

I feel like you will deny that explicitly, but I suspect in your heart you FEEL that's true. I don't think it is. I think that large groups of people can be made to do terrible things. [ooohhh, I can feel it now -- the comeback -- "That's right, and George Bush is an example ....] Whatever ...

 

[Urwumpe]

GregBurch: Before I dare any appropriate answer: Are you alright? Or is your account hijacked?

Just so much on my position on history: Who does not know history, will be forced to repeat it.

 

[GregBurch]

GregBurch: Before I dare any appropriate answer: Are you alright? Or is your account hijacked?

Just so much on my position on history: Who does not know history, will be forced to repeat it.

I'm fine -- I'm just cranky today and I don't know how any rational person can't perceive the very real and present danger that confronts our civilization.

History establishes that wave after wave of Islamic fundamentalist violence has rocked the world. It didn't stop in 1685 or 1919 or 2001. We're facing the rise of another such wave. It's real and this time our own civilization's character is being used against it, and our own technology is being used against us.

 

[Linguofreak]

So, let me interpret you ad absurdium: It is OK to be a hate preacher, when you preach hatred against the right group? And who does not support this hatred, is an enemy? And if you preach hatred, it does matter, to use correct information as you don't need a rational reason to hate? So pretty much hating for the sake of hating?

While stating that any given human being is filth (or at least as more filthy than the rest of us), as Greg did, does go a bit over the top, you don't need to hate to declare Hamas a terrorist organization. They have carried out suicide attacks. Their charter calls for the destruction of the state of Israel. What more do you need to declare them a terrorist organization? And, if this Mr. Stevens does really support Hamas, that makes him a criminal. Not filth, but certainly a criminal.

 

[GregBurch]

If you have an open mind, read these two items:

http://www.city-journal.org/2008/18_2_cultural_jihadists.html

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/blogs/index.php/totten/34001

 

[Linguofreak]

Just so much on my position on history: Who does not know history, will be forced to repeat it.

But that applies just as much to peace as it does to war. We have the First World War with the various nations of Europe squabbling for territory and power, and we have the Second World War, which could have been over much more quickly and with much less blood had England and France gotten over the idea of "peace in our time" and stopped Hitler sooner rather than later.

The question is which one we are repeating now.

 

[Urwumpe]

Ah... "a very real and present danger". Do you already see the armies marching against Washington?

A few very patriotic investment bankers already caused more damage inside the USA as all religiously motivated terrorism inside the USA in history. And you talk about a very real danger?

As long as you don't treat Muslims has equal humans, how do you want to explain them, that you are no danger to them? History likes to repeat and one common pattern is "We are superior to you." Islamists will tell their peers, that they have moral superiority. God is on their side. What is your superiority? A constitution, that is not worth the paper it is written on? That you can pay terrorists for your petrol, instead of having to steal it?

I tell you, how the history will repeat: The Islamic uprising will end again by the Arab people getting betrayed by their own leaders. And they know it. They have become as fatalist, as you. They just pray, that it will not become as painful as the last time.

Do you think, the Muslims immigrate to the west for spreading their religion? For earning money inside the USA to pay terrorists? For having many children in Germany and topple our constitution that way? Did you ever ask them?

I tell you, there is no such fool as an old fool. It is no sin to be unexperienced and naive, when you are young, but becomes a sin, when you should be knowing better.

 

[tl8]

hmmm, I don't know whether to reply to your posts, or close the thread because the debate is heated.

That said I am not even sure if the rules cover this sort of discussion.

Anyway, for an interesting view on things, watch 'Journeys to the ends of the Earth'

They are some very interesting doco's. I will try and find a link

Edit: http://www.offthefence.com/content/programme.php?ID=332

 

[Linguofreak]

I'm fine -- I'm just cranky today and I don't know how any rational person can't perceive the very real and present danger that confronts our civilization.

I very much agree with you, and even think that it will all hit the fan much sooner than you think: Probably within the next 5 to 10 years.

But it's very easy to see how it can be ignored. The islamic fundamentalists have a fair number of legitimate grievances. They can use those as leverage to guilt-trip the rest of the world into giving them alot of stuff that they have no legitimate claim to. Hitler did the same thing. If there were any good guys at all in the First World War, (doubtful), they were the Central powers. But they lost, and the Allies absolutely savaged them in the Treaty of Versailles. When Hitler came to power, he used the fact that the Germans had cause for righteous indignation and the fact that the Allies had *really* good cause to feel guilty to guilt-trip them into the "peace in our time" mentality, and into letting him have half of Europe before they did a single thing.

I realized a few weeks ago that for all that I (with 20/20 hindsight) condemn the British and French pacifists of the 30's for their stupidity with regards to Hitler, and those of the current time for their stupidity with regards to islamofascism, I probably, had I been around in the 30's, would have fallen straight in with the pacifists, not wanting to repeat the error of WWI.

Which doesn't mean that my opinion has changed, seeing as I am who I am, here and now, not somebody different in 1930's England. It does mean, though, that I can definitely see how somebody in their right mind could miss the threat of islamofascism.

 

[n0mad23]

My match was dropped on BigJoey's post. I used to think dumb and proud was the worst scenario, but I've had to tack on the belligerent modifier as being even worse.

I hate neo-nazis. If this offends you, you might want to consider why. But as a patriot, I'll defend their right to free speech to the bitter end, though I'll reserve my right to groan about it. It always leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

There are far too many examples of how the Patriot Act flies in the face of the 1st Amendment, but I'll post a couple of examples since it seems that my own credibility is on the line.

Btw- I hadn't thought of Cat Stevens, but for those of you that read The Satanic Verses, is it just me, or was he the inspiration of Rushdies character Bilal-X? Cat Stevens' subsequent calling for Rushdies death - well, I've got absolutely no tolerance whatsoever for that kind of B.S. I've grown absolutely intollerant of intollerance!

The Patriot Act and violation of the 1st Amendment:

What about Josh Wolf? He's now got the record for a journalist doing time for contempt of court. His crime? He wouldn't turn over his video records of a protest in California.

How about the attorney Brandon Mayfield? Using the Patriot Act, the FBI broke into both his house and offices without warrants. Bugged his phones, too. Somehow, he was implicated in the Madrid bombings (but Spain tried to tell the FBI it was the wrong guy). He did 2 weeks in jail, has been given an official apology, and a $2 million dollar settlement for wrongful arrest.

I was thinking about the "RNC Welcoming Committee" whose 8 members were arrested in St. Paul and charged with terrorism. All crimes committed by protestors are the responsibility of these people, apparently. And that was my point back in Sticks and Stones - under the Patriot Act, terrorism doesn't have anything to do with the dictionary definition anymore. In fact, 3 years ago one of my college freshman spent the day in the custody of the Secret Service because they got ahold of his college email and library account. His crime? He's an engineering student and he did research on the bridges in Skagit Valley here in Washington State.

But I think the best evidence for this comes from the 103 page opinion by U.S. District Judge Victor Marrero who says that warrentless wiretaps and security letters are a direct violation of the 1st Amendment.

 

[Urwumpe]

you don't need to hate to declare Hamas a terrorist organization. They have carried out suicide attacks. Their charter calls for the destruction of the state of Israel. What more do you need to declare them a terrorist organization?

Now, pick our western favorite palestine organisation, the Fatah. They have carried out suicide attacks and their charter AFAIK still calls out for the destruction of the state of Israel (but a open letter by political prisoners in Israel against this goal is considered current law). But we don't consider them a terrorist group anymore.

They are all criminals. And they are all hiding their crimes under the mask of a well-working social network. We know it. Many people in the arab world don't. They only see how fast they rebuild destroyed houses, Houses, destroyed by Israel helicopters. Nobody sees the artillery firing from there. Nobody in the Arab world sees the people who don't get help by Hamas, Fatah or Hezbollah, and complain about that.

And do you know why? Because we are not there. All the people see of us there, is the cruise missile. They see us as caricatures in newspapers, even if they can't read, they know how bad we are. If we are really about to loose this war, then only because we don't make the rules. And it is people like Schlussel, who play by the rules of the terrorists. People like Schlussel hate and hate is their currency.

We can't make terrorists stop being terrorists. That would be the hope of appeasement. We need to fight them as hard as we can and punish them as hard as we can. But what if we don't play by the rules? What if we show real caring presence? What if the people no longer have to rely on Hamas and Co for getting help?

And, if this Mr. Stevens does really support Hamas, that makes him a criminal. Not filth, but certainly a criminal.

Not Hamas, but Hamas-friendly welfare organisations. Which are almost all if you support Sunni organizations. There are only very few such orgnizations who can work in the middle-east without cooperating with any "terror group".

There is a nice study somewhere from a german institute, which found out, that 90% of the people of donated money indirectly to terror organizations did not know, that they donated to terrorists. They only read nice pamphlets in their mosque (or small praying room), advertizing the social welfare programs of such groups.

 

[Linguofreak]

Do you think, the Muslims immigrate to the west for spreading their religion? For earning money inside the USA to pay terrorists? For having many children in Germany and topple our constitution that way? Did you ever ask them?

No. But those same leaders that are driving them into the West will, not as the result of any sinister plot, but as the result of simple opportunism, use the rising Islamic population in the West to fight the west. Get rid of islamofascism, stabilize the Middle East, and then it ceases to matter how many muslims are immigrating to the West. Without islamofascism using them for cover, or as a population base for recruiting, they are no threat. Fail to do so, and things get very ugly.