Lunar hoax believers: DO NOT OPEN THIS THREAD!

[Usquanigo]

I don't want to lecture you about your own constitution and history,

Probably a good idea.

The Bill of rights is not the same as the constitution - it is now a part of them.

By being a part of it, it is the same. Simple logic. It is held as separate because of it's significance, but every amendment IS a modification of the Constitution, and thus, a part of it. (and also the only legal way to modify or countermand it)

Also, the bill of rights are no civilian constitution at all, if you look how many situations of war are dealt with it. It is a set of rules for a revolution and the immediate time afterwards, with many declaration in case the revolution shall fail - like the second one, which has just the right to make sure that even after a draw, the united states should not be weakened from within.

Didn't you just say you weren't going to do this?

Anyway, you are absolutely incorrect. The concept is that of the Sovereign Citizen, a sovereign without subjects. That is to say, absolute freedom (and true independence), so long as you do not tred upon the rights of another.

As the people are the ultimate repository of all power, it was spelled out that anything not specifically given to the Federal government, nor to the States, was solely the domain of the people themselves.

(10th Amendment)

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

Long and short, the point of the goverment is to stay the hell out of our lives and leave us alone. They are there to settle disputes between states, provide a common face to forieng nations, provide for the national defence, provide a common currency, and to ensure the rights of the citizens are preserved. That is quite literally IT.

What you see from The Founders philosphy(ies) and political work is exactly that. We are meant to be truly free and independent, and if ANY person or organization threatens that, we are ultimately responsible for dealing with it. That means we need the tools to do so - arms.

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

It is ILLEGAL for the Federal government to pass any form of gun control, as that is infringment. (it also is utterly illogical for them to do so, given the very reason for our right to keep and bear them)

US Code -

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are— (1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

The militia is ALL of us. It is not controlled by the government. Again, that is an illogical inconsistency. (and the only way for us to BE a militia, or to be or have training, is to keep and provide our own tools to do so - since we aren't sponsored or controlled by the government)

The final ratified version of it (1789) is thus just the glorification of these rules of war created already during the war - what we are fighting for and how we will do it.

The war was over. The war was defined by the Declaration of Independence. The Articles of Confederation were the first attempt at making a nation that could get through the war. However, almost immediately afterward, it was seen that something new had to be drawn up.

The point of the Constitution was to make a real government, for a real nation, POST war.

Once again you are incorrect (and still attempting to lecture me, which you said you were not going to do).

Having a gun under your pillow is sure no sign of a militia.

Having one under your pillow is the sign of lunacy. But being ABLE to have one under your pillow, IS the sign of a militia - as defined above, all of the able bodies populace of the country (yes, it says "men", but that was pre-suffrage, and even back then the women helped out in war time).

A militia is not about owning weapons, but about being trained as soldier as well.

As defined above, it is NOT about being sponsored, trained, guided, or controled by any governmental body. They are to be watched BY us, they can't dictate how we can watch them. (referring to militia, training, and weapons)

But like so often, it is no free lunch. It does not just say: You have the right to own weapons and nobody should take them away from you. It also says that this right has a defined purpose and a duty it expects from you, if you want to take this right.

Actually, yes it does. "the right to keep and bear arms shall not be abridged" - that means it can't be shortened, tighted, controlled, monitored, or taken away.

But don't worry. That applies to citizens in good standing - the law abiding, non-criminals. Conviction of a felonie is grounds for forfeiting your Constitutional rights (which would include voting and keeping and bearing arms) - technically. And the last part of that is indeed in use.

Yes, it is a right, and a duty, a duty to remain a citizen in good standing. A duty to watch for and fight all tyranny, foreign AND domestic.

Patrick Henry -

Are we at last brought to such an humiliating and debasing degradation that we cannot be trusted with arms for our own defense? Where is the difference between having our arms under our own possession and under our own direction, and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?

Have we the means of resisting disciplined armies, when our only defence, the militia, is put in the hands of Congress?​

Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined.​

To sum up - we are provided the means to have a revolution again, if it is that strongly felt as being necessary. Therefore, logically the government can NOT control the very tools needed and used in such actions. And technically, any attempt by them to do so, is both illegal and tantamount to tyranny (or at least a precursor to it).​

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BTW - I know it's fairly common for Europeans to assume that they know more about America's history and government than Americans, and that may be true today for the most part (thanks to liberals), but there ARE exceptions. Rest assured, THIS is one of them.



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[simonpro]

BTW - I know it's fairly common for Europeans to assume that they know more about America's history and government than Americans, and that may be true today for the most part (thanks to liberals), but there ARE exceptions. Rest assured, THIS is one of them.

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Why are liberals to blame for everything in the USA? I'm assuming that you're blaming them for dumbing down education to the extent that US kids don't know jack about their history...but Europe is a hotbed of liberalism even when compared to the most liberal of US politicians, yet we manage history just fine. Well, with the possible exception of the UK, but as a newspaper on the plane today told me: It's Broken Britain, full of tonies cronies and chavs with funny hats.

Also, Europeans think they know about everything. This is a trait not strictly European, however.

 

[tblaxland]

This thread has well and truly run off the topic of the OP. Now that its turned to sweeping nationalistic generalisations, it is time to put the thread out of its misery. Please remember to keep it civil in the future folks.

Regards,
O-F Staff.