The point of Orbiter

[ar81]

• Warning: This thread is intended to be civilized and informative. So do not reply with emotions or anxiety. Think, write, think, post. If you want to vent emotions, there is always the chance to practice bungie jumping, rafting, or parachuting, but unfortunately those are out of the scope of Orbiter.

Now let's get to the point.

• The point of Orbiter is space flight. It is just like Microsoft Flight Simulator but for space travel. You may find how different it is to fly in space when compared to atmospheric flight. Therefore you may not find heavily detailed textures or hills when landed, and you may not find weather or wind. However, many addon makers have created addons with specific surface features and there are efforts of people to improve the sim. Also, the whole solar system is loaded into memory, so if you had detailed enough textures, you might not even run the sim in most of computers.
• Orbiter is work in progress, and probably always will be. So if something is not implemented, there are two ways: To suggest someone to make an addon, or to create an addon for yourself that achieves the goal you want.
• In space there is no sound, so the Orbiter core does not have sound, but fortunately Dan Steph made an addon that adds sound when inside cockpit.
• This sim is free, addons are free too. If you like it you may use it, if you do not like it, you may try to look for something better, which usually means to look for payware. I have tried to look for other space sims, and none of them have the vision, spacecraft, the experience and scope of Orbiter.

I hope I have clarified many of the issues a newcomer may find.
Just one word of advise:

• Be friendly. People here give their time for free to make addons. The author of the sim have given us his effort for free. A little bit of appreciation of their effort may be nice, unless you can do better, in which case we are all ears.
• Do not let yourself to be impressed by textures. Learn the gameplay and you will find that it is the richest part of the game. It is a space flight simulator, so learn to fly in space.

Things that you might not want to do:

• Complain about the sim. It is the product of hard work, and it is free. It is unpolite to complain as if it was payware.
• To start flame wars or even acid irony. It normally leads to a ban. Tolerance is very low here. Do not push the red button.
• Show off. Here you have people who know a lot about software, aeronautics and other topics. You may like to learn from them, not to show off and find yourself in a battle of egos. Be humble.
• Politics, religion, sports. Those are very sensitive issues that normally lead people to a fight. Avoid them and I am sure you will get along.

Greetings!!! :speakcool:

 

[Urwumpe]

Also, who complains about the visual side of Orbiter...

http://www.acsoft.ch/AMSO/IMAGES/images.html

 

[tgep]

As a freeware work in progress, many addons are built to take advantage of the base program to do things that you may or may not agree with. One example is an MFD currently in development that would allow users to travell to star systems other than Sol. While the Msss MFD already exists, we are seeking a better way of interplanetary travel in Orbiter without shutting down and restarting from a saved state.

It's not current tech or even near tech but someday it will be and those colony ships will need someplace to go.

Weapons are also a big issue in Orbiter. There are those of us who design and build ships with functional weapon systems. We do this because we are military or prior military service members. It's a natural extension of our own intrests and lives. We strive to build the most realistic weapons we can within the Orbiter framework. We have been successful with chainguns, MK-82 SnakeEye retarded bombs , missiles of variouse size, and are now working on artillery shells.
Like it or not, warefare is a fact of life as old as mans dream of flight. You may not realize just how much of the technology you take for granted today was developed for battlefield use.

 

[Ghostrider]

MK-82 SnakeEye retarded bombs

Now now, we prefer the term "special bombs".

 

[ar81]

Also, who complains about the visual side of Orbiter...

http://www.acsoft.ch/AMSO/IMAGES/images.html

[Joker mode]
Oh geez, that's horrible, as horrible as reality!!! :lol::rofl:
[/Joker mode]

Weapons are also a big issue in Orbiter. There are those of us who design and build ships with functional weapon systems. We do this because we are military or prior military service members. It's a natural extension of our own intrests and lives. We strive to build the most realistic weapons we can within the Orbiter framework. (...) Like it or not, warefare is a fact of life as old as mans dream of flight. You may not realize just how much of the technology you take for granted today was developed for battlefield use.

Regarding weapons addons, it is important to remember that wargaming software products are defense articles designed to simulate wartime environments and decision processes, and they must comply with US International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) in order to avoid serious legal problems and government enforced sanctions. Sites like these forums or orbithangar are under US jurisdiction.

 

[the.punk]

I think the point of orbiter is also learning about space physics. Maybe not the most important point but it is a point.

 

[ar81]

Or if you want to use Orbiter to improve world economy, you may try to develop an addon to teach people about entrepreneural skills. Employment needs a boost on the planet nowadays, and every person who become entrepreneur contributes to improve the world economy.

 

[T.Neo]

Regarding weapons addons, it is important to remember that wargaming software products are defense articles designed to simulate wartime environments and decision processes, and they must comply with US International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) in order to avoid serious legal problems and government enforced sanctions. Sites like these forums or orbithangar are under US jurisdiction.

Are you being serious? :huh:

 

[ar81]

Are you being serious? :huh:

Find out, in case you do not believe it. I am dead serious.
It is part of national security legislation.

 

[Urwumpe]

Find out, in case you do not believe it. I am dead serious.
It is part of national security legislation.

You are maybe dead serious, but misinformed. Not all computer games are falling under the arms control laws, actually, it is rather the exception than the rule, even in the US, after Osama forced his legislative will on it. It has also nothing to do with "national security laws" (which are actually not existing, even in the USA you have no special laws, even no laws defining what national security actually is)

A military flight simulator for example, is usually not controlled - if it is based on a real military flight simulator used by the Air Force, and thus developed by using arms controlled knowledge (manuals, specifications), it is.

 

[agentgonzo]

Find out, in case you do not believe it. I am dead serious.
It is part of national security legislation.

Only if you're part of the United States. I suspect that O-F is hosted in the US, so it will naturally fall under the US national security nonsense. But if it's hosted outside of the US, then US legislation has sod-all meaning and relevance.

 

[ar81]

You are maybe dead serious, but misinformed. Not all computer games are falling under the arms control laws, actually, it is rather the exception than the rule, even in the US, after Osama forced his legislative will on it. It has also nothing to do with "national security laws" (which are actually not existing, even in the USA you have no special laws, even no laws defining what national security actually is).

Well, Boeing had an interesting and surreal surprise when they interpreted ITAR and then government came to supervise.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2002754224_boeingitar22.html

If you are to make an addon that may fall under ITAR, you better make sure yours is absolutely ITAR compliant.

Does anyone want to try to play on the edge of law, playing with ITAR posting addons that are derived material from US military technical data? That's everyone's freedom.

Freedom involves the freedom to decide to be at risk of federal indictment. I will not tell you what you must do. You are free. I just wanted to warn about risks.

 

[agentgonzo]

Well, Boeing had an interesting and surreal surprise when they interpreted ITAR and then government came to supervise.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2002754224_boeingitar22.html

If you are to make an addon that may fall under ITAR, you better make sure yours is absolutely ITAR compliant.

You may say I am uninformed. Nice. My head will not be at risk for I play safe.

Does anyone want to try to play on the edge of law with ITAR? Go ahead.

I'll play that game. But then again, I'm not a US citizen and don't live in the US, so US laws, much like the laws of Kyrgyzstan, don't apply to me.

 

[ar81]

Only if you're part of the United States. I suspect that O-F is hosted in the US, so it will naturally fall under the US national security nonsense. But if it's hosted outside of the US, then US legislation has sod-all meaning and relevance.

That's your interpretation of ITAR. I am not telling you if you are right or wrong.

I understand your enthusiasm for military gadgets.

ITAR issues go beyond the simple fact of posting and hosting. Posting an hosting is where it begins, not where it ends. People may need to understand the full extent of ITAR before making a priori interpretations. It is not my role to explain ITAR.

 

[Urwumpe]

If you are to make an addon that may fall under ITAR, you better make sure yours is absolutely ITAR compliant.

It is just happening very rarely, that people in Orbiter use classified military manuals as source for making an add-on or parts of software developed for military applications in add-on making.

Reading the article you posted, you have likely not even understood what it meant... because it is about using real military technolgy in real aircraft. Especially it is about engineers not able to guarantee that they didn't use such military technology - it contains no reaction of the state.

Which is pretty hard to extrapolate to Orbiter add-ons.

---------- Post added at 07:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:41 PM ----------

That's your interpretation of ITAR. I am not telling you if you are right or wrong.

How could you, as you don't even know how to interpret it correctly yourself? This would be the realm of special lawyers and judges.

ITAR issues go beyond the simple fact of posting and hosting. Posting an hosting is where it begins, not where it ends. People may need to understand the full extent of ITAR before making a priori interpretations. It is not my role to explain ITAR.

No, you just use it as undefined threat for scaring people. Oh watch the bad ITAR. It will come and get you if you make military add-ons.

You are not much better in that context to politicians who use the undefined threat of terrorism for reducing the citizens rights and install a totalitarian regime.

I could say it better in my own words, but this would get me some evil looks from the moderators.

 

[ar81]

Everyone has a point of view.
It is not my intention to engage in controversy.

The point is: ITAR exists, and if it is ITAR compliant, then that's fine.
If it is not, then bad for some else, not me.

 

[Usquanigo]

You guys really got stung by that Dr. Okun, didn't you?

You do realize you are just preaching to the choir, that he is nothing but a troll, and this is exactly what he had hoped for..... right?

 

[ar81]

You guys really got stung by that Dr. Okun, didn't you?

You do realize you are just preaching to the choir, that he is nothing but a troll, and this is exactly what he had hoped for..... right?

Indeed my first impression when I ran Orbiter for the first time, Checklist scenario, as I took off from KSC, was that the visuals were "not impressive" (yeah, I also beat myself for thinking that), but later I understood why, and later I discovered the richness of visuals in space travel, beyond anything I had seen before.:speakcool:

If I had said that back then, right after entering the forums, I bet would have been flamed. But I kept those comments for me, and then I flamed myself.

 

[wehaveaproblem]

You guys really got stung by that Dr. Okun, didn't you?

You do realize you are just preaching to the choir, that he is nothing but a troll, and this is exactly what he had hoped for..... right?

What he said. Sorry, but this is a pointless thread. Though interesting ITAR debate, that would have made a better topic.

 

[Hielor]

Weapons are also a big issue in Orbiter. There are those of us who design and build ships with functional weapon systems. We do this because we are military or prior military service members. It's a natural extension of our own intrests and lives. We strive to build the most realistic weapons we can within the Orbiter framework. We have been successful with chainguns, MK-82 SnakeEye retarded bombs , missiles of variouse size, and are now working on artillery shells.
Like it or not, warefare is a fact of life as old as mans dream of flight. You may not realize just how much of the technology you take for granted today was developed for battlefield use.

Orbiter is really not the best platform for wargames, for various reasons. Moreover, none of the weapons addons I've seen thus far have been very realistic at all, even compared to dedicated combat flight sims of thirteen years ago: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-10_Cuba!