Perceptions of the UK

[GoForPDI]

Hey guys, as you should all know, i'm Scottish and proud of it, and I find that this sort of debate often seems un-talked about within the UK and ill-understood from outside observers.

So here's the deal, in 1707, a new Kingdom of Great Britain was brought about, in the union of the Kingdoms of Scotland and England (of which Wales was part of). The Acts of Union were two Parliamentary Acts passed by England (in 1706) and Scotland (in 1707). The two Kingdoms had shared the same monarch since 1603, the union of the crowns, with King James VI of Scotland inheriting the English crown from Elizabeth I and in 1801, the Kingdom of Ireland came into union with the Kingdom of Great Britain, forming the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.

So now, in 2011, we have the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, made up of four countries: England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales.

So, thats the history lesson over. Now to my point (which I will clumsily try to make). Despite over three centuries of the UK, the four countries that make it up are still seen as exactly that: Four countries. And because of this, from the outside, the terms 'English' and 'British' are interchanged without any hesitation, they are the same thing to most. And this perception seems to be everywhere you look. The North of England is always referred to as simply ''the North''.. Isn't that odd? Britain extends far beyond the English border. The majority of the British population do live in England, so this is understandable to a point, but sometimes it just feels as if the rest of the country is completely ignored.

And the fact that each country is seen as its own country gives each county its own unique political opinion. But, because of the large English population, any general election result will always be skewed towards the English point of view. Always.

So, basically, I ask, what sort of view do you hold of the UK? Do you see this as much as I do? Is the Union still relevant today? Do you think the Union is beneficial for each of its countries? What is you view on Scottish independence?

 

[N_Molson]

So, basically, I ask, what sort of view do you hold of the UK?

Rain :lol:

Seriously, I think that most of the population of the island is concentrated in the South of the Britannic island. So in a sense it's logical that the english point of view domines.

From France, I must admit I see Scotland & Northern Ireland as "peripheral" regions. And the Hadrian's wall certainly put cultural differences early in the history. The South of the island lived under the roman empire, the Scotland & Ireland didn't.

Scotland the brave !

:2cents:

 

[Izack]

Most of my friends didn't know that the flag of England isn't the Union Jack. To be honest, it seems most people around here see the UK as one big lump of either crazy footballers or people with funny accents whom you occasionally meet while playing CoD online (ignoring Ireland/Scotland unless to mention leprechauns, potatoes or bagpipes) depending on how young/Acadien the person you ask is. :lol: But it's incredible how close 'too far away to care much' is. :dry:

It's really a shame, because it's so much history and knowledge lost (as usual) in favour of simple stereotypes, just because people around here can't be bothered to learn anything about anyone. But then again, this is the statistically dumbest place in my entire country... :facepalm:

 

[Notebook]

Rain :lol:

Seriously, I think that most of the population of the island is concentrated in the South of the Britannic island. So in a sense it's logical that the english point of view domines.

From France, I must admit I see Scotland & Northern Ireland as "peripheral" regions. And the Hadrian's wall certainly put cultural differences early in the history. The South of the island lived under the roman empire, the Scotland & Ireland didn't.

Scotland the brave !

:2cents:

There's a fair bit of England, thats North of Hadrians Wall, including the bit I grew up in! Not that anyone takes much notice of it these days. Not sure what you make of this one...

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonine_Wall"]Antonine Wall - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

N.

 

[Slaintemaith]

I'm not sure the Irish (at least those in the south, and many in the north) will -ever- acknowledge themselves as anything -but- Irish.

A new priest at my great grandmother's parish asked her once if, by chance, her accent was English. She replied, "Would you like to die a -natural- death?"

 

[Lucy]

I live in the North. Yup. And yet I more than likely live some significant distance south of my Scottish compatriot here.

What gets to me more is the international image and stereotypical image of "British" held (and most noticed by myself in the US) seems exclusively limited to London. Those of you in the US are most likely to consider a "British accent" to be a Londoner's - yet in truth, both the slight scouse / sandgrounder tinge to my voice, the Scottish accent, my sister's inherited Nottingham accent (East-coast way), and a few of my friends from Northern Ireland are all British accents - some English, some Scottish, some Irish, and a few relatives of an old girlfriend Welsh.

Our collection of countries is certainly odd, and I do think even the north of England is misrepresented in general elections as the results are invariably skewed in the direction of the capitol. Our international presence seems thusly skewed too, which I can understand, but irks me no less.

 

[GoForPDI]

Anything that is not an accent from the South-East is considered a ''regional'' accent which always bugs me.

The North of England is very much like the central west of Scotland, an area of the country that was once heavily involved in heavy engineering, steel and coal, and along with the North West and East of Scotland, which is heavily involved with fishing, is sure to create different opinions to those who live in the south.

We have a very odd situation here too in the fact that all of the countries have their own devolved parliaments, except from England.

 

[Arrowstar]

To be entirely honest, while I've always been aware of the historical aspects of how the modern UK came to be, I've never considered each individual country to be that, really. The UK has always just been the UK in my eyes. My perception of Wales, England, etc has been more analogous to U.S. states, since only the UK is the legal sovereign entity that the international community recognizes as such (correct me if I'm wrong).

 

[Lucy]

I recall some of my USian friends to be a little surprised when I pointed out that the UK isn't a country, but a collection of countries. Yes, they were aware of England, Scotland, Wales, N.I and the remaining sovereign states that technically fall under our banner as well, but I think they thought of them as just that, analogous to the way the states make up the country of the USA.

It's actually not entirely dissimilar; As I understand it, certain laws change from state-to-state in the US (some as broad-ranging as the ages you can drive and drink at (Not both at once, obviously that's always illegal, and with good reason...)), and indeed within the UK certain bylaws and policies on things like education are widely different from individual country to country (Scotland's free tuition fees were recently in the news as England's just increased the cap to £9,000 per year, for example).

Sadly, I don't know of many places off-hand still involved with heavy manufacturing in this country. Labour is cheaper in the far east, so most production was outsourced there, leading to the slow death of vast industrial portions of the country, particularly the north of England. As for beyond, I have no real knowledge, but in Liverpool alone I see the same dead, empty shells of old factories every day, and can't help but feel a little sad about it. Pride in British engineering and manufacturing seems to be a little silly when all our manufactured products are brought in from overseas and "assembled" here - why be proud of a "British" car when all "Britain" did with it was put four bolts in it to hold the doors on and then sell it?

 

[Scruce]

The United Kingdom is almost exactly like the fifty states of the USA. Each state, being England, Scotland etc, has some of its own laws that are not found in any other of the regions. But in some ways it all included together, our military for example, is referred to as the Military of the United Kingdom. Not as the Military of England or Scotland.

Despite what you might think, England does not rule over Scotland, nor does it rule over Wales or Northern Island. It just so happens that the powers of the United Kingdom are held in Westminster, which is in London, England. However, the United Kingdom as ruled by England is used when referring to ownership of its colonies. Gibraltar, Ascension, Akrotiri etc.

Most of my friends didn't know that the flag of England isn't the Union Jack.

The flag of the United Kingdom is a merging of the flags of its sub-countries, Strangely enough; Wales is not included on our flag.

Flag of the United Kingdom:

Flag of England:

Flag of Scotland:

Flag of Northern Ireland:

Flag of Wales:

 

[GoForPDI]

Heavy industry is very dead here. But these area's of the country were built on heavy industry.

Look down the Clyde and you see all the deserted shipyards and drydocks completely covered in weeds and rusty corrugated iron. There are only two left, and they are both run by BAE Systems, which are building parts of the new aircraft carriers.

The difference between the UK and the USA is that the USA is a federative type of union between the states. Each state has its own government that comes up with its own laws and the US Federal Government takes care of the bigger stuff.

The UK is a unitary state with one central government that deals with the big stuff, yet at the same time deals with the sort of things that the State Governments in the USA do. But, the UK Government gave Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales their own devolved powers, which let them control taxes (but not all), education, culture, tourism, etc.. Yet, we are still not a Federal type country. Its a union of four countries, with one central government.

There are parties in each of the devolved nations which want to break from the Union, Sinn Fean in NI want the re-unification of Ireland, uniting the traditional 32 counties of Ireland, and are currently in a coalition with another party. Plaid Cymru want independence for Wales, and the SNP want independence for Scotland, and currently hold a majority parliament in Holyrood.

---------- Post added at 04:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:15 PM ----------

The flag of the United Kingdom is a merging of the flags of its sub-countries, Strangely enough; Wales is not included on our flag

Wales was annexed by the Kingdom of England prior to the Treaty of Union in 1707, so Wales was part of England then.

 

[Lucy]

There were some interesting original alternative designs for that flag, too;

(Source: [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Flag"]Union Flag - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame] )

 

[Evil_Onyx]

I live in the East Midlands, and sill find I'm refered to as a Northerner.

GoForPDI
We have a very odd situation here too in the fact that all of the countries have their own devolved parliaments, except from England.

That bugs me, as Scotland, Wales and Northern Island can make regional derisions that help there areas, but we are stuck with having to deal with our local council to do that.

Xyon
Our collection of countries is certainly odd, and I do think even the north of England is misrepresented in general elections as the results are invariably skewed in the direction of the capitol. Our international presence seems thusly skewed too, which I can understand, but irks me no less.

I agree, our current system of selecting seats in parliament, is geared towards giving the areas with the greatest population density the most say in parliament. Again something that is a great pain for those of us that live out side of citys. (Fox Hunting Ban anyone, "Development" Planning that is going to make several farms in my area go bankrupt. i could go on....)

 

[Scruce]

There are parties in each of the devolved nations which want to break from the Union, Sinn Fean in NI want the re-unification of Ireland, uniting the traditional 32 counties of Ireland, and are currently in a coalition with another party. Plaid Cymru want independence for Wales, and the SNP want independence for Scotland, and currently hold a majority parliament in Holyrood.

If the Union were to be broken, then the diffrence between Scotland and England would be like, say; Germany and France. Theye are completely different countries with their own seperate goverments, taxes control etc.

 

[T.Neo]

I think, that a dissasociation of the United Kingdom, is the stupidest idea ever. It is almost as bad as a US state that wants to secede, or the political party here that wants to turn the western and northern cape into a seperate country because the majority of people there speak Afrikaans.

It will only lead to fragmentation, loss of power, and complication of various things. Britain is fine as it is, thank you very much. If you have a problem within your nation, try to fix it, do not try to destroy the nation itself. And of course, if you are annoyed by people's perceptions of your nation (an annoyance to which I can relate), try to fix that as well.

A search for "new British flag" brings this up:

Of course you could just give up and use this flag:

Or, considering that to a lot of people the UK is just America's 51st state, you could just accede to the nation that has this flag:

 

[Lucy]

I think, that a dissasociation of the United Kingdom, is the stupidest idea ever. It is almost as bad as a US state that wants to secede, or the political party here that wants to turn the western and northern cape into a seperate country because the majority of people there speak Afrikaans.

It will only lead to fragmentation, loss of power, and complication of various things. Britain is fine as it is, thank you very much. If you have a problem within your nation, try to fix it, do not try to destroy the nation itself. And of course, if you are annoyed by people's perceptions of your nation (an annoyance to which I can relate), try to fix that as well.

I would disagree with "Britain is fine as it is", but agree with the integrity sentiment. We have some very serious problems with differing policies that don't make any sense and a "coalition" liberal/conservative government which is basically just a conservative government with a few puppets dressed in yellow pretending that the tory plan was what they had in mind all along and isn't our new paypacket very attractive?

At the same time we have some majorly nonsensical policies on tax, like the vastly disproportionate taxes on petrol and cigarettes that seem to be higher than the rest of Europe and the US (definitely separate, probably combined as well...) - the countries function, but I wouldn't say "All is well".

This said, I don't think splitting apart the union with an independant Scotland would accomplish anything either, but fragment the situation even further. While I'm not necessarily politically savvy enough to fully understand what benefit Scotland and England share by them being united, I'm fairly sure that the independence idea would harm both Scotland and the rest of the UK.

Not of course that I think the Scottish couldn't and cannot handle their own affairs - by no means to I think an independent Scotland wouldn't survive, I just think it'd make life unnecessarily more difficult for everyone, for little to no benefit.

 

[Ark]

The OP spelled out a lot that I didn't know about the UK. Pretty much my entire perception of them comes from Hot Fuzz, Shaun of the Dead, Top Gear, and Jon Oliver.

 

[Lucy]

All four, with the possible exception of Hot Fuzz (which does at least include some rural ... somewhere scenes) paint an exclusively South Eastern picture of the UK. There's a lot more to us than just one corner.

I'm sure it's similar in the US. Just as the TV we export paints a certain picture of our country to you, the TV you export provides an interesting snapshot of USian life that is most likely not accurate for the wider majority of the country.

I suspect this is what TV people mean when they say "Demographics", but I have no idea.

Edit: Excuse me, Jon Oliver being another exception. I read it first as "Jamie Oliver", who's better known to me, strangely, being a Londoner-type chef person.

 

[garyw]

All four, with the possible exception of Hot Fuzz (which does at least include some rural ... somewhere scenes) paint an exclusively South Eastern picture of the UK. There's a lot more to us than just one corner.

I happen to be in the SouthEast corner and quite like it down here. FYI, Sanford is the village in Hot Fuzz. Yes, I'm a fan of that movie of some reason.

Whilst I love living in England I hate the fact that everything is London Centric. There are many train journeys that can't be made because you have to get into London then back out.

The Olympics.... they are supposed to be for the Country but it's all in and around London (and playing havoc with regular train events, life, etc, etc).

I lived in London for 34 years and totally had enough and wanted out. I just want to get a job outside of London now.

Just to add - London no way represented the UK. Come to the UK, spend two or three days in the middle of the work week in London then go ANYWHERE else. In London it's all head-down-I'm-too-busy-go-away. Outside of London that attitude changes. It doesn't matter if you go North or South people are friendlier than Londoners and I say this having been born in London.

 

[Scruce]

I happen to be in the SouthEast corner and quite like it down here. FYI, Sanford is the village in Hot Fuzz. Yes, I'm a fan of that movie of some reason.

Sanford is modelled on the city of Wells in the South-West.