News Speed of light broken?

[RisingFury]

What about Tachyons?

Tachyons have negative mass, and do not fit at all in modern theroies of quantum gravity.

Wrong. Tachyons are supposed to have an imaginary mass.

I wonder if we would be able to notice if the speed of light would change?

Well, it is imaginary because of the negative square root that occurs when velocity exceeds the speed of light,...

my gps woudn't work

alternatley, what if neutrinos are ghosts of particles from another dimension, one where the speed of light is either redundant or much higher? now all we need to do is work out how to get from our slow dimension to their fast one...

Well, there goes another thread :facepalm:

 

[Grover]

Well, there goes another thread :facepalm:

we're still On-topic, but if the SoL theory applies to most modern particle physics, then technically anything is on-topic

 

[RisingFury]

we're still On-topic, but if the SoL theory applies to most modern particle physics, then technically anything is on-topic

Except that the last page and a half has been parroting of Wikipedia speculation and conjecture with no basis in fact.

 

[Fabri91]

Meanwhile, in Italy:

...costruzione del tunnel tra il Cern ed i laboratori del Gran Sasso...

Full press release here

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

In case they correct it, here it is:

Ufficio Stampa

Roma, 23 settembre 2011

Dichiarazione del ministro Mariastella Gelmini
"La scoperta del Cern di Ginevra e dell'Istituto Nazionale di Fisica Nucleare è un avvenimento scientifico di fondamentale importanza."

Rivolgo il mio plauso e le mie più sentite congratulazioni agli autori di un esperimento storico. Sono profondamente grata a tutti i ricercatori italiani che hanno contribuito a questo evento che cambierà il volto della fisica moderna.
Il superamento della velocità della luce è una vittoria epocale per la ricerca scientifica di tutto il mondo.

Alla costruzione del tunnel tra il Cern ed i laboratori del Gran Sasso, attraverso il quale si è svolto l'esperimento, l'Italia ha contribuito con uno stanziamento oggi stimabile intorno ai 45 milioni di euro.

Inoltre, oggi l'Italia sostiene il Cern con assoluta convinzione, con un contributo di oltre 80 milioni di euro l'anno e gli eventi che stiamo vivendo ci confermano che si tratta di una scelta giusta e lungimirante".

(Brutal) Translation:

Press Office

Rome, 23 september 2011

Statement of the minister Mariastella Gelmini
"The discovery made by the Cern of Ginevra and by the National Institute of Nuclear Physics is a scientific event of great importance.

I congratulate myself with the authors of such an historic experiment. I'm very grateful to all the Italian researchers that have contributed to this event that will change modern physics.
The achievement of faster-than-light speed is a victory for scientific research in the whole world.

Italy has contributed with 45 million Euros to the funding of the tunnel between the Cern and the laboratories at the Gran Sasso, through which the experiment was conducted.

Moreover, Italy is supporting Cern with absolute determination, with a yearly grant of 80 million Euros and this event confirms how this has been an intelligent and well-thought of endeavour."

 

[T.Neo]

Except that the last page and a half has been parroting of Wikipedia speculation and conjecture with no basis in fact.

Oh well, I'll guess I'll just make stuff up. That's perfectly okay, right?

Tachyons, if they exist, are heretofore most probably made of crumbed-up ice cream cones...

 

[Cras]

Except that the last page and a half has been parroting of Wikipedia speculation and conjecture with no basis in fact.

Yes. Posters on Orbiter Forum will not be the ones who find the way to explain how the speed of light was broken. And posting links to wikipedia certainly wont help either.

 

[Fizyk]

If this is true, then it's the most awesome piece of news I've ever heard

Also, this doesn't have to violate the theory of relativity. If relativity is right (and it seems to be), then it would only mean that causality is broken (which is a rather philosophical assumption which only seems to be true - but so once did the assumption that time is the same everywhere). Hello, time travel, instantaneous communication and other funny things

 

[RisingFury]

If this is true, then it's the most awesome piece of news I've ever heard

Also, this doesn't have to violate the theory of relativity. If relativity is right (and it seems to be), then it would only mean that causality is broken (which is a rather philosophical assumption which only seems to be true - but so once did the assumption that time is the same everywhere). Hello, time travel, instantaneous communication and other funny things

Don't get your hopes up

 

[Cras]

If this is true, then it's the most awesome piece of news I've ever heard

But things being able to travel faster than light really does break down special relavitity and its claim that any object not undergoing acceleration can claim to be at rest. It is the limit on the speed of information that provides solid protection of that right, and if that can now be gotten around, then the single best explanation as to why light will always fly away from you no matter how fast you are traveling.

Once you get over the fact of the physics, the practical implications are more than just exciting. To thing that someday we can have the ability to create vessels capable of faster than light travel.

 

[Urwumpe]

I would wait... The number of neutrinos faster than light is significant, but it does not tell you much about how the reference time was measured.

I suspect a measurement error, but even if it is one, it does not mean that the measurement error is less important in scientific significance than the speed of light getting broken. maybe the measurements are broken by an unknown phenomena.

 

[RisingFury]

But things being able to travel faster than light really does break down special relavitity and its claim that any object not undergoing acceleration can claim to be at rest. It is the limit on the speed of information that provides solid protection of that right, and if that can now be gotten around, then the single best explanation as to why light will always fly away from you no matter how fast you are traveling.

Once you get over the fact of the physics, the practical implications are more than just exciting. To thing that someday we can have the ability to create vessels capable of faster than light travel.

Neutrinos flying faster than light won't destroy relativity, just like relativity didn't destroy Newtonian physics. There's no easier way of saying that. The E=mc^2 equation (or better E = sqrt[p^2 * c^2 + m^2 * c^4], p = Gamma * m * v) will still stand. Decades of work in particle accelerators have shown this to be true.

Until this gets verified by several other detectors and thoroughly checked, it's just an interesting result that's probably an error. After all, we have plenty of examples of neutrinos flying slightly slower than light.

 

[Fizyk]

But things being able to travel faster than light really does break down special relavitity and its claim that any object not undergoing acceleration can claim to be at rest. It is the limit on the speed of information that provides solid protection of that right

Not really. The claim about the speed limit is based on the assumption that causes should always come before effects. If this assumption is wrong, then relativity doesn't give you any limit at all, except for the fact that you can't "change sides" - you can't accelerate above light speed and tachyons can't decelerate below light speed.

 

[Kyle]

She'll make it .5 past light speed, she may not look like much but she's got it where it counts. I've made a lot of special modifications myself.

 

[Linguofreak]

Does anybody have a link to an actual scientific paper on this? All the articles I've found so far have been from the general media, and, as such, have had all content filtered from them that the journalist in question could not understand.

 

[Ghostrider]

I've made a lot of special modifications myself.

Can it do the Kessel Run in less than 12 parsecs?

 

[fort]

Does anybody have a link to an actual scientific paper on this? All the articles I've found so far have been from the general media, and, as such, have had all content filtered from them that the journalist in question could not understand.

The link is on the page two of this topic given by orb (#24):

"Measurement of the neutrino velocity with the OPERA detector in the CNGS beam"

http://arxiv.org/abs/1109.4897

The related pdf is on the upper right corner of the page

http://arxiv.org/pdf/1109.4897v1

 

[Cras]

Neutrinos flying faster than light won't destroy relativity, just like relativity didn't destroy Newtonian physics. There's no easier way of saying that. The E=mc^2 equation (or better E = sqrt[p^2 * c^2 + m^2 * c^4], p = Gamma * m * v) will still stand. Decades of work in particle accelerators have shown this to be true.

Until this gets verified by several other detectors and thoroughly checked, it's just an interesting result that's probably an error. After all, we have plenty of examples of neutrinos flying slightly slower than light.

Wait what? Relativity completly destroyed Newton physics. Newton's equations sure do give good results, good enough that they can still be used, but they do not at all describe accuratly what gravity is or how it alters space.

And E=MC^2 is not the heart of relativity, not even close to it. If E=MC^2 was all that was important in relativity, then there would be no issue with it and quantum mechanics. E=MC^2 actually plays very very well with Quantum Mechanics, and that can be see in the coupling that occurs when two particals collide and express the extra engergy as matter antimatter pairs before the two particals depart on their altered paths.

The heart of relativity is in motion, and how it is impossible to differentiate between an object in motion or at rest. Special Relativity makes the claim that there is no physicial experiement that can be done to differentiate if a system is in constant motion or is standing still. Every object not under going acceleration can claim to be at rest. If matter can be moved faster than light, then information can be moved faster than light, and now it becomes possible to determine if an object is moving or not.
General relativity eliminates the requirement for constant motion and says that any object can claim to be at rest, by saying that it cannot be determined from within the closed system if the acceleration being felt is either from change in velocity or gravity.

Just think of the classic example of the two astronauts in deep space with giant clocks. One is at an absolute stand still, the other under going constant motion and they cross paths. The short end of it is, both astronauts will conisder themselves to be the one standing still, and they have every right to, and they can look at the clock of the passer by astronaut and the time differential they see with that clock to their own clock will verify this, but there is no way for one of the astronauts to report the discrepency to the other, because by the time the information gets to the other guy, the reverse will appear true. If you can send info faster than light, then the right each astronaut has to claim he is at rest goes out the window.

 

[hribek]

Wait what? Relativity completly destroyed Newton physics.

Wait what? Ain't that Orbiter's physics? I guess we are doomed.


Unless you mean a different kind of destruction.

http://qntm.org/board

" ... preliminary results suggest that the Earth was destroyed pre-emptively by scientists at the Large Hadron Collider at CERN, Geneva, Switzerland, before the commencement of their experiments to locate the Higgs Boson, as a precautionary measure to ensure that the experiment itself could not result in the destruction of the Earth."

 

[Fizyk]

The short end of it is, both astronauts will conisder themselves to be the one standing still, and they have every right to, and they can look at the clock of the passer by astronaut and the time differential they see with that clock to their own clock will verify this, but there is no way for one of the astronauts to report the discrepency to the other, because by the time the information gets to the other guy, the reverse will appear true.

Wait what?

If you can send info faster than light, then the right each astronaut has to claim he is at rest goes out the window.

Again:

Wait what?

It's just the same. Each astronaut would still say that the second one is going FTL. It's all the same.

 

[fsci123]

could it be possible that maybe it takes infinite energy to get the speed of light if you are decelerating?