Heavy fighting in South Ossetia.

[Notebook]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7546639.stm


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7548715.stm

This could get nasty.

N.

 

[Urwumpe]

It is already nasty for years.

 

[simonpro]

The Russians have gotten involved in the fighting now too. This isn't going to end well, I think.

 

[Urwumpe]

The Russians have gotten involved in the fighting now too. This isn't going to end well, I think.

The Russians had already messing in the affair for years, I am sure, without Russia supporting the separatists, the civil war would have been over years ago.

 

[GregBurch]

Am I reading this correctly:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia#Demographics

that the entire population of S. Ossetia is only about 100,000 people?

 

[Notebook]

Probably correct, the BBC quote 70,000 in their reports.

N.

 

[Urwumpe]

And 60% of the rebel government budget is paid by Russia - according to the rebels.

I personally think, South Ossetia is just the casus belli for Russia to attack Georgia. South Ossetia has no important economic value, while Georgia has access to oil and other resources.

 

[GregBurch]

And 60% of the rebel government budget is paid by Russia - according to the rebels.

I personally think, South Ossetia is just the casus belli for Russia to attack Georgia. South Ossetia has no important economic value, while Georgia has access to oil and other resources.

That sounds about right. With Putin reviving Slav imperialist sentiment, and with the hated George Bush about to leave power through democratic elections (wait -- wasn't he some kind of unconstitutional fascist-military-capitalist dictator -- I'm confused), maybe our sophisticated European friends will have a different attitude about what's really important in world affairs next year ....

 

[Urwumpe]

We are surrounded by fascists, we can just choose which fascist is choosing the most humane punishment for us liberal dissidents. Do you want to get waterboarded? Tortured in a Chinese prison? Forced to eat Indian food while somebody makes you a good offer for a Indian call center?

Of course we choose India.

 

[GregBurch]

We are surrounded by fascists, we can just choose which fascist is choosing the most humane punishment for us liberal dissidents. Do you want to get waterboarded? Tortured in a Chinese prison? Forced to eat Indian food while somebody makes you a good offer for a Indian call center?

Of course we choose India.

I love waterboarding. My wife's a really good waterboarder, too.

... oh, I thought you said water skiing.

 

[eveningsky339]

It sounds like the West should be exercising some of their espionage techniques. If there was hard evidence that Russia was supporting these separatists, the West could perhaps prevent another repeat of Iraq's invasion of Kuwait prior to the first Gulf War.

I have a good friend who lives in Georgia, but I haven't talked to her in a while. I hope she is alright.

 

[GregBurch]

It sounds like the West should be exercising some of their espionage techniques. If there was hard evidence that Russia was supporting these separatists, the West could perhaps prevent another repeat of Iraq's invasion of Kuwait prior to the first Gulf War.

I have a good friend who lives in Georgia, but I haven't talked to her in a while. I hope she is alright.

I don't think that evidence of Russian involvement would have much effect. With the oil and gas weapon in his hand, Putin is immune to the effects of "world opinion."

... funny how that happens. Once again, energy independence is proven to be the number one priority for the security of the civilized world.

 

[Urwumpe]

Yeah. If you disagree with Russia, they close the pipelines and you sit in a cold house during winter. :dry:

Or you have your own decentralized heating unit based on regrowing natural resources. :speakcool:

 

[Ghostrider]

I love waterboarding. My wife's a really good waterboarder, too.

... oh, I thought you said water skiing.

I do waterboarding too. Wait, isn't waterboarding the stuff you do when you're snowboarding on melting snow?

 

[eveningsky339]

I don't think that evidence of Russian involvement would have much effect. With the oil and gas weapon in his hand, Putin is immune to the effects of "world opinion."

... funny how that happens. Once again, energy independence is proven to be the number one priority for the security of the civilized world.

Eh, you have a point. The UN is the boil on the backside of humanity either way. The most effective course of action, then, would be to eliminate the separatists faster than the Russians can send supplies. Though that's easier said than done.

 

[Jarvitä]

A comparison between South Ossetia and Kosovo clearly shows the hypocrisy of the international community. With that said, it's still sad that this could not be resolved peacefully.

 

[GregBurch]

The UN is the boil on the backside of humanity either way.

When I was growing up, I absorbed the standard "progressive" attitude of support for the UN ... just one step toward the utopia of a single world government. Back then, I viewed opposition to the UN as a sign of backwards "right wing" thinking.

Now I know what the UN is -- at best a bureaucratic monstrosity, at worst a front for the most regressive and nasty regimes in the world. The day the Muslim League countries refused to sign the UN charter on human rights, the whole stupid thing should have been shut down as the sham it is.

 

[Urwumpe]

A comparison between South Ossetia and Kosovo clearly shows the hypocrisy of the international community. With that said, it's still sad that this could not be resolved peacefully.

The question is also, was it ever meant to be solved peacefully. As far as I remember, South Ossetia was an autonomous region inside the sector of Georgia in the USSR, and kept this limited cultural autonomy during the independence of Georgia (for example the local Ossetian language was NEVER a official language in the region in the past century).

Like it is now, it is not a conflict South Ossetia vs Georgia, but a conflict Russia-Georgia. The fact that over 60% of the citizens in South Ossetia say, they have Russian citizenship is another piece in the puzzle. Back into the realm.

Just like the Kosovo, none of the small tribal areas of Georgia can survive alone. Kosovo can't work without the support of the EU, though it would have better chances in it's geographical region than South Ossetia or Abkhazia (the autonomous republic Georgia accepts and which got created after an ethic cleansing of 200,000 Georgians by Abkhazian and Russian troops in the Abkhazian War of 1993)

So, while not all is good in Georgia (not at all), historically, Georgia was more on the victim side in the last 20 years than Russia. And maybe in some months, we can say that Russia has Georgia on it's mind.


-----Posted Added-----

Now I know what the UN is -- at best a bureaucratic monstrosity, at worst a front for the most regressive and nasty regimes in the world. The day the Muslim League countries refused to sign the UN charter on human rights, the whole stupid thing should have been shut down as the sham it is.

Yeah. This would have been an act of self-respect. After all, these universal human rights are considered the foundation of the UN. Now, the human rights are defined by which kind of ruler you have. A real change to the times before the UN. :dry:

 

[GregBurch]

Quote:
Originally Posted by GregBurch
Now I know what the UN is -- at best a bureaucratic monstrosity, at worst a front for the most regressive and nasty regimes in the world. The day the Muslim League countries refused to sign the UN charter on human rights, the whole stupid thing should have been shut down as the sham it is.

Yeah. This would have been an act of self-respect. After all, these universal human rights are considered the foundation of the UN. Now, the human rights are defined by which kind of ruler you have. A real change to the times before the UN. :dry:

This really is the most disgusting thing to me about the so-called "progressive," "internationalist," "multilateralist" support for the UN. The people who always want a UN mandate and criticize Israel and the US and UK for being "cowboys" act like they don't have a clue that their most beloved victim group -- the poor, downtrodden Muslim countries -- have officially and openly spit in the eye of the foundational political and moral document of the UN. This hypocrisy makes me want to puke.

 

[Urwumpe]

This really is the most disgusting thing to me about the so-called "progressive," "internationalist," "multilateralist" support for the UN. The people who always want a UN mandate and criticize Israel and the US and UK for being "cowboys" act like they don't have a clue that their most beloved victim group -- the poor, downtrodden Muslim countries -- have officially and openly spit in the eye of the foundational political and moral document of the UN. This hypocrisy makes me want to puke.

Well, that is the problem - it aren't the people. It is their government, which is almost never elected by the people. The UN should care for people, but like now it cares for governments only. Instead of solving the humanitarian problems, the UN actually creates them for political abuse.