Am I infinitely stupid?

[Spaced]

Hello chaps..... it's my first post on an Orbiter forum. Have been around a long time, but have only just forged a cogent topic I feel would be worthy of your wisdom.



The concept of infinity. Is it flawed?

If anything were truely infinite it would surely occupy every last speck of "space" having no defined boundary wouldn't it? If a boundary were to be measured it would cease to be infinte as one could say "Here is where it ends" If anything were infinite it would surely occupy the space I currently fill and the space you occupy, as well as all the other matter we can differentiate from the "fabric of space". In fact there would be no room for anything else if any one thing were to be infinite?

Could the humans' mind inability to comprehend infnity be down to the fact that nothing can be absolutely infinite? And those that try are trying to imagine something that can't possibly exist?
One might argue that travelling along a circlee would be infinite because it has no end and no beginning, constituting an infinite journey. But standing outside of that circle we can measure it's dimentsions, proving a finite size.

In my admittedly limited knowledge, the only thing currently being scientifically described as infinite would be the diameter of a black-hole..... "infnitely small". Does that really mean no matter how much one could "zoom in" nothing could ever be seen/measured? (Ignoring the obvious inability to measure a black hole) Or is it mathematics failure to decribe something that we have to use a concept of the human mind to fill in the gaps?

If anything were to be outwardly infinite it would as I said, surely occupy all known space in the universe. And by that definition the only candidate would be the fabric of space itself? I'm not trying to argue that space is infinite, it's a possibilty but it goes against our measurements.

Infinity has been around for a long time But it's only used to describe something that we can not (At that time) define

Or am I a lunatic trying to argue that a mathematical tool can't exist because I can't udserstand it? Can anyone describe an example of something we know to be infinite, except the number we can't count up to?

Cheers
Marcus

 

[Urwumpe]

Infinite just means: No borders. Nothing else. Don't make more of it. Imagine space to have no borders, regardless how far you travel.

And infinity glows blue.

 

[Spaced]

Fair dues. So from your point of view, infinity is just a word we use when we can not define any borders. It doesn't imply that anything actually is infinite?

Cheers

Marcus

 

[Jarvitä]

Infinite just means: No borders. Nothing else. Don't make more of it. Imagine space to have no borders, regardless how far you travel.

And infinity glows blue.

Well, if you divide an infinite space with a plane that coincides with the triangle I just drew on my table, both parts of it are still infinite, even though they now have a semi-boundary that limits them in one direction. An infinity can be limited in any number of directions as long as it's still infinite in at least one.

After all, what's infinity divided by two?

And yes, infinity is just an abstract concept. It's already been proven that our universe is, in fact, not infinite, and, by definition, anything that exists inside it can not be infinite, either.

 

[Spaced]

Thanks Jarvita,

That's the kind of claryfication I was seeking.

I hope I'm not wasting anyone's time on the forum. My real world associates don't have the will or ability to debate these points.

Cheers

Marcus

 

[Urwumpe]

And yes, infinity is just an abstract concept. It's already been proven that our universe is, in fact, not infinite, and, by definition, anything that exists inside it can not be infinite, either.

That is still not proved. We only have physical evidence, that there is a horizon, we can't see past, in time as well as in space.

 

[Eagle]

How about: Infinite is big enough not to matter how big it really is.

 

[spcefrk]

...It's already been proven that our universe is, in fact, not infinite,

When/where was that? I'd like to read more.

 

[martins]

If anything were truely infinite it would surely occupy every last speck of "space" having no defined boundary wouldn't it? If a boundary were to be measured it would cease to be infinte as one could say "Here is where it ends" If anything were infinite it would surely occupy the space I currently fill and the space you occupy, as well as all the other matter we can differentiate from the "fabric of space". In fact there would be no room for anything else if any one thing were to be infinite?

If you take an infinite volume and cut away a finite volume, it still remains infinite. So infinite doesn't mean 'covers everything'. Even cutting away an infinite volume may still leave the original volume infinite (e.g. cutting away an infinite half-space from an infinite space).
Or take a cylinder of finite radius and infinite length. Its volume is infinite, but it certainly doesn't cover all space.

 

[Linguofreak]

In fact there would be no room for anything else if any one thing were to be infinite?

Untrue. Solid objects can't overlap with each other, but there's nothing that says that an infinite thing has to be a solid object. As long as it can overlap with other things, your infinite thing leave plenty of room for whatever it can overlap with.

 

[n0mad23]

Perhaps it'd be helpful to try it the other way. Imagine the infinitely small, as in someways, though equally mind-blowing, is a bit easier to comprehend. Can you ever realize the infinitely tiny? There's always a space a little smaller than the one you've just imagined/explored.

 

[Spaced]

Blimey, this forum shifts a bit quicker than the ones I'm used to. Wasn't expecting to read any replies until tommorrow.
And a visit from the great Dr himself on my first post, how lucky's that!?

These arguments that describe how an object of infinite dimension can be infinite...... Surely these are pure mathematical arguments to define the said concept of infinity? Rather than an example of something we can describe in the real world (off the human mind)? Is there anyyhing tangible when measured in the universe that we would describe as being infinite? It seems to me like a concept to describe impossible objects and or scenerios that can't exist in the real world.

Or please tell me if I'm just trying to pick on a time honoured human concept for no reason?

Cheers

Marcus


**Edit**
actually....... re-reading all this. I think I'm having a moment where my thought processes are running away from me. It's actially quite hard trying to define what I'm trying to ask. I'm not even sure myself. I'll go away and rethink my standpoint for a bit. If I can find the words I'll continue. Thanks for your viewpoints, it's given me something further to think about.

 

[Urwumpe]

How can you measure or observe infinity? When you think about this, you already notice, why infinity is mostly a mathematical defined term: You can't measure infinity with finite sensors.

 

[Spaced]

Agreed.

Before I started asking questions I was assured in my mind of my standpoint. Now I'm suddenly questioning my questions which is a bad sign I haven't defined the problem properly to myself. I think the word "exist" is the moot point for me here.

I'll continue to mull this one over.

Cheers

Marcus


-----Posted Added-----


Oh before I go away scratching my head....... as this is my first post to the forum and haven't done so yet. I want to say thankyou ro all the developers and contributors who have made my years of orbiting so enjoyable. And a big thanks to Martin Schweiger for opening my mind and allowing me to orbit until my heart's content.

Thankyou

 

[Donamy]

What if you had an infinite number of librarys, how many books would that be ? How many pages in those books, how many words on the pages, how many ... Oh no, my brain hurts.

 

[Spaced]

That's my point. If the libraries were infinite shouldn't they occupy all known space in the universe. If not you could see where they end (hypothetically) and start counting, thus measuring their finite amount. If they were infinite, taking up all space in the universe, you couldn't be there to try and count the pages as there would be no room in space. A universe that has just enough room for you and an infinite number of libraries means there is still a limit to the number of libraries as they stop just as you begin.
That also means there would be an infinite nuimber of people ready to shhh! Shoosh? (How do you spell that?) So if you were to make a noise there would be an infinite cacophany of shhushing going on for ever and having no beginning. That means they must have been shushing for all time if it were to be infinite, meaning they started shushing before you made a noise. Let's not even mention late return fees.

That was to be original style of debate behind the concept of infnity, flawed but assured. But it was the suggestion of a cylinder with finite radius but infinite length that made me realise the failure of my thinking. It's quite imaginable in one dimension. For all we know there could be one out there right now, beyond the Hubble's gaze, running perpendicular to our view. But that would then imply an infinte universe in at least one direction. That's the kind of (admittedly far out) possibility my mind needed to click to.
But infinite libraries aside. It seems to me in the "real world" every number is countable if you just have enough time to do it. I guess it's like quantum rules where I just need to accept they exist as it helps us explain some pretty whacky things.

Cheers

Marcus

 

[Jarvitä]

Isn't it paradoxical to assume an infinite number of anything can exist in a non-infinite universe, which is what you're proposing?

 

[Spaced]

Of course..... but I was neither proposing or questioning the nature of the universe itself. That's open to debate and I'm not taking my own measurements, so I'll leave that for acedemics to argue over. I was mearly wondering over the reality and possibility of something being infinite in the real world. Yes, by virtue an infinite object dictates the universe must be infinite. I overlooked that and as the debate on the universe is still open I realise the futility of my question.
I was not seeking approval of a theory or anything like that. I had an un-answered nagging in my head and you chaps have helped steer me in the direction I need to be thinking.

This is the most far reaching and wise (for the most part) forum I know of. I feel fortunate to have an oppertunity to pick your minds. Plus you lot answer, wheras friends just stare at me in bewilderment. Thanks.


Marcus

*edit*

as I said, I have heard of black hole singularities defined as "infinitely small" That doesn't cause one to infer an infinite universe. Yet we can't examine one, so I wonder is that the sort of example where maths is just failing to describe? That's the kind of answer I was hoping would be thrown up. Aren't cosmic strings supposedly massive in one dimension, but "infinitely small" along another? (I've not hit the reseach button there) But do we have any evidence of a cosmic string?


-----Posted Added-----


I have to go to bed now, and I don't know if I have the mental power to carry on this line of thinking. I'll resign myself to accepting it "exists". On certain levels. It was silly of me to try and pin down and define such an abstract concept in that way.

I guess the answer to the post title : I'm not infintely stupid. This post suggests I'm only one half of infinitely stupid.

Cheers, n'night

Marcus

 

[n72.75]

Infinite just means: No borders. Nothing else. Don't make more of it. Imagine space to have no borders, regardless how far you travel.

And infinity glows blue.

the universe hase an edge its like a bubbel thats raceing away from the center of the universe at the speed of light. i dont expect 3 dimentional mortals like your self to understand. but the best approximation i can give is 2D beings living on the flore of a box.

got it?? :speakcool:

 

[tblaxland]

I have to go to bed now, and I don't know if I have the mental power to carry on this line of thinking.

Ah, now I see where you have gone wrong - never contemplate infinity after midnight!

I'll resign myself to accepting it "exists". On certain levels. It was silly of me to try and pin down and define such an abstract concept in that way.

There's nothing wrong with trying to define an abstract concept but it is important to know the limitations of such abstract concepts.

I guess the answer to the post title : I'm not infintely stupid. This post suggests I'm only one half of infinitely stupid.

:lol:


-----Posted Added-----

the universe hase an edge its like a bubbel thats raceing away from the center of the universe at the speed of light. i dont expect 3 dimentional mortals like your self to understand. but the best approximation i can give is 2D beings living on the flore of a box.

got it?? :speakcool:

So what is beyond the edge? Nothing (no time, no space)? For me, nothingness is no easier to contemplate than infinity.