Updates Ares Updates and Discussion

First cynicism, now a hazy analogy. Are you having a good day? :)

Anyway, do I understand it correctly that in your opinion manned space exploration must make a profit to be justified (i.e., "grown-up")?
 
So then, in 2017, when the ISS ends, the purpose of US manned spaceflight will be.......?

Depends on the space agency/company I think. For NASA it'll be returning to the Moon and go beyond (and I think it is time to do so). But I think that China and Russia also might reach for the Moon and Mars in future (maybe NASA, ESA and Roscomos together). Or Russia and Europe might build another space station.

Anyway, I can't wait to see Ares lifting off. The future of manned space flight does not look bad only because the Shuttle is going to be retired.


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...Anyway, do I understand it correctly that in your opinion manned space exploration must make a profit to be justified (i.e., "grown-up")?

I personally don't think that way at all. Without national space flight, we wouldn't have seen Apollo, Soyuz, STS, ISS and all the other stuff. I'm for national space flight programs and national funding. I would not like to see industries taking over this job, and make it a profit game. But I doubt that there is a market for that anyway, which would enable stuff like the ISS and returning to the Moon. Only with industries involved, we would not see any manned space flights for decades IMHO (as I always mention: we also don't even see a second Concorde, while the Concorde was a national project too). We'd see satellite launches (and maybe a few manned suborbital gimmickry) but that's it.

I'm happy with NASA and its history (except the STS project which lasts way too long). Keep going and head for Ares!
 
Anyway, do I understand it correctly that in your opinion manned space exploration must make a profit to be justified (i.e., "grown-up")?

Pretty much. If the only way to get people to pay for something is to stick the tax man's gun in their faces, then justification for that project becomes difficult.

Don't mind me, I'm just that minarchist in every crowd...
 
[Looks at thread subject] "Orion/Ares Updates"
[Looks at recent posts] So when is this thread going to be locked for going ridiculously off-topic?
 
Come one guys, there are plenty of other threads where you can bash the space program
 
Come one guys, there are plenty of other threads where you can bash the space program
I'm trying to stick up for it! :(

You don't consider this Griffin "news" a shot across the bow for Ares, or you know of another thread where such is being discussed?
 
Come one guys, there are plenty of other threads where you can bash the space program

Those self-proclaimed NASA and Constellation experts do it almost everywhere whenever they can. It's an interesting and partly funny phenomena. But I can't wait to seem them go quiet once Ares I and V is in orbit ;)

And by the way...

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/topic/orl-nasa1208dec12,0,72162.story

Anyway, don't trust on news articles too much. It's a lot of hot air, or lets better say it's just letters.
 
Those self-proclaimed NASA and Constellation experts do it almost everywhere whenever they can. It's an interesting and partly funny phenomena. But I can't wait to seem them go quiet once Ares I and V is in orbit ;)

And by the way...

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/topic/orl-nasa1208dec12,0,72162.story

Anyway, don't trust on news articles too much. It's a lot of hot air, or lets better say it's just letters.


It is refreshing to have anyone actually hope for the success of the program. Kinda rare these days.

But the lack of any substantial goals seems deflating. If all this pans out we will be able to get to the ISS cheaper and so it goes. Gemini Titan could do that. Now what?

If I were you, ESA and Russia, It seems to me this is the time to go for it.

As long as our Govt does not try to hold back our private industry into space, we may have a chance to stay in the game.

As it stands right now, the fortitude to progress on this front is as firm as our elected official's willingness to be forthright with their public. :rofl:

If any thing goes wrong, run for cover.:(

Good time to watch Frank Borman on "From the Earth to the Moon" when he had to defend the Apollo program in front of Congress to continue after the Apollo 1 fire.

So, what's changed?
 
Good time to watch Frank Borman on "From the Earth to the Moon" when he had to defend the Apollo program in front of Congress to continue after the Apollo 1 fire.

So, what's changed?

No one has died
 
No one has died

I truly appreciate your concern, but that was not the point.

The point was, what has happened to the spirit of achievement beyond just the needs of today, speaking of politicians and bureaucrats.
 
Well, since I presume you guys are talking about me, I never claimed to be a "NASA expert", nor do I hope Constellation fails. Should any or all of the program hardware actually be built and flown, I heartily wish it a perfect record.

There is no conflict with hoping for success of any existing program on the one hand and criticizing the philosophy behind that program on the other.
 
It is refreshing to have anyone actually hope for the success of the program. Kinda rare these days.

I think it was always rare. If anything is uncertain, it's space flight. It's always technological challanges and political/financial challanges. But people are just too much sceptical.

"Beautiful simplicity: Do what? Moon. When? End of decade."
Michael Collins

"Each challange has to do what I think most people thought was impossible, including me."
Eugene Cernan

"The very first time I saw the Shuttle sitting on the back of that 747 I thought: we have screwed up bad, this is never going to work."
Robert Crippen

And I don't really want to know what non-involved people all over the world (even orbinauts are non-involved ;) ) thought about all those projects. Nothing has changed. There will always be chitchat and sceptics.
 
There is no conflict with hoping for success of any existing program on the one hand and criticizing the philosophy behind that program on the other.

No issue there.

I think it was always rare. If anything is uncertain, it's space flight. It's always technological challanges and political/financial challanges. But people are just too much sceptical.

"Beautiful simplicity: Do what? Moon. When? End of decade."
Michael Collins

"Each challange has to do what I think most people thought was impossible, including me."
Eugene Cernan

"The very first time I saw the Shuttle sitting on the back of that 747 I thought: we have screwed up bad, this is never going to work."
Robert Crippen

And I don't really want to know what non-involved people all over the world (even orbinauts are non-involved ;) ) thought about all those projects. Nothing has changed. There will always be chitchat and sceptics.

Good post:)
 
One another note:

I always hear voices concerning the riscs of Ares ("the shaker" blah..., which people basically got from certain blogs and news articels). So what? The Space Shuttle lifted off manned on its first test flight into orbit. James Lovell is rather right when even he complains that today people are afraid of heaving accidents. It is really annoying. Space flight always is risky. And I'm wondering about all those people who unconscious claim to know risk prevention better than NASA engineers.
 
"Spaceflight is always risky"...

When ever I hear this argument, I wish to give the poster a first-hand experience with risk...

Spaceflight is risky - just like living. There is no perfectly safe thing. You can even die inside your own bed, without ever leaving it.

But there is a difference between managed risks and having an great amount of luck. Apollo for example was not always managed risks. Lowell should know this too well. And many "in the past everything was better" apostles sure forget the other many technical anomalies in the Apollo missions. Comparing Shuttle and Apollo in that context would quite interesting, as the Shuttle has about 10 times more telemetry as Apollo. I am sure the list on the Shuttle will not be 10 times longer because of that...

That the vibrations of a rocket engine are no problem and can be tolerated, is usually said by people who have no engineering experience at all (Management people or Fan boys). Apollo 12 was nearly a failed mission, and that not because of the lightning strike, but because of the fact that oscillations of a single rocket engine of the second stage already reached 7 cm magnitude when the problematic engine was shut-off early. Just remember: the engine was installed fixed into the thrust structure, with only the structure itself acting as damper. The thrust and thrust oscillations had been constant over the burn - what allowed the magnitude to increase had been the fact, that the structure get weaker over time. Now you can argue: Hey, but the engine health monitoring shut the engine off, so all is fine. Wrong. You had been only a single point of failure away from loosing stage integrity. The vibrations happened to all flights, but a single failed pressure transducer could have been enough to keep the engine running.

Pogo suppression was added to later flights, but the first had to go without even though the problem was known after the first Saturn V test flight.

And it is not different now. The Shuttle had the advantage, that the two SRBs had a huge and pretty flexible external tank between the human payload and the SRBs. Still, the vibrations on the Shuttle are on the limit and the noise levels inside the Shuttle during launch extreme, even with helmets on. You don't hear the SSMEs because they operate perfectly silent, you don't hear them because you had been deafened by the SRBs before.

The Ares-I will be one magnitude or more worse than the Shuttle, and the mitigation of the problem shows too well, that it is not easy to get rid of the natural behavior of the SRBs. It will be interesting to see, how astronauts can read the displays (which will be quite clogged with information), while these displays vibrate relative to them (as the shock struts of the seats will produce a large part of the dampening for the crew)

But I am wondering more about people, who have to insult rational arguments by using
argument of authority ("How can they dare to know risk prevention better as NASA engineers?"). When something goes wrong because of a risk for which you as engineer or manager had been responsible, your authority is gone. So, without rational scientific argumentations, you are just entering the fanboy level. And did I mention that I think that fanboys are about the first MRO/Mission-related Objects that should be dumped during the Ares-I test flights?

Jim Lowell possibly had just one big advantage in his life over us in the terms of safety: The luxury of being unaware. Did he know that the O2 tank was damaged? If he knew, would he have flown anyway? And even worse: Let's say he knew that the tank was damaged and Apollo 13 happened like it did. Will he do the same decision to fly again in the same situation?
 
And it is not different now. The Shuttle had the advantage, that the two SRBs had a huge and pretty flexible external tank between the human payload and the SRBs. Still, the vibrations on the Shuttle are on the limit and the noise levels inside the Shuttle during launch extreme, even with helmets on.

Hang on. I thought that the oscillation problem came with the added 5'th segment. Did I get the wrong end of the stick?;)
 
Hang on. I thought that the oscillation problem came with the added 5'th segment. Did I get the wrong end of the stick?;)

It did sure not improve it. ;)

But the vibrations are huge inside any large solid rocket motor, in launch videos of the Shuttle you can even see them well and easily on the hull of the ET.
 
It did sure not improve it. ;)

But the vibrations are huge inside any large solid rocket motor, in launch videos of the Shuttle you can even see them well and easily on the hull of the ET.

Yeah! I'll never forget how the oxygen line flexed during launch.

But I don't understand why strap-on boosters weren't considered, instead of an extra segment. The 4-segment SRB doesn't have 4+G axial oscilations, does it?
 
The huge vibrations I see are created by hobby-experts in blogs and forums, who are going to become minimized and lost in the deepness of the internet the day Ares lifts of manned ;)
 
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