News Asiana 777-200 Crash on landing at SFO

[RGClark]

looking at this graph, i feel like i know exactly what happened since i've done this before in flight sims. coming in at a pretty good angle but didn't slow down, so going way too fast. Horizontal motion due to speed, not lift, then cut the engine to keep angle good, lose airspeed and start falling, but still going to fast so the "correct angle" is an illusion created by falling but trying to gain back the angle with lift then realizing the speed is too slow and you're actually stalling because you slowed down too much to keep the right "angle". Well, that might all sound confusing, but i swear i've made this mistake in sims... the main difference is that i'm not a professional responsible for human lives with hundreds of hours of flight time :facepalm:

Is there an auto throttle in the sims?

Bob Clark

---------- Post added 07-12-13 at 12:08 AM ---------- Previous post was 07-11-13 at 11:31 PM ----------

The latest reports suggest the autothrottle was "armed" but may not have been engaged, as apparently it is a two step process in the 777:

San Francisco probe brings questions over auto speed controls.
By Martha Mendoza
Associated Press
Published: Thursday, July 11 2013 10:13 a.m. MDT
Updated: 1 hour ago
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/765633733/SF-probe-brings-questions-over-auto-speed-controls.html

Anyone know of how autothrottle works in the 747? Both pilots were more experienced in the 747. Is it possible in the 747 simply arming the autothrottle is sufficient for it to protect against dropping below the safe speed?
The training pilot should have known about the two step process in the 777 though the pilot undergoing training may not have been. One possibility is that since this was the training pilots first training mission, when the pilot at the controls said he armed the autothrottle the trainer did not check to see it was also engaged.

Conflicting descriptions on how the auto throttle works. This article says the armed autothrottle should still have prevented the plane from dropping to too low speed:

Asiana 214 Pilot Hints At Autothrottle Confusion.
By John Croft ****@aviationweek.com
Source: AWIN First
July 9, 2013

Hersman says investigators documenting switch positions is the cockpit after the crash noted that the autothrottles were armed. In that state, the system will automatically activate when speeds are low regardless of whether pilots have the autothrottle system turned on or off.
http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/awx_07_09_2013_p0-595503.xml

Bob Clark

 

[Urwumpe]

Conflicting descriptions on how the auto throttle works. This article says the armed autothrottle should still have prevented the plane from dropping to too low speed:

When all is configured correctly, yes. If not, and it looks like that, it won't.

The autothrottle on the 777 works much different to the 747.

You arm the 777 autothrottle like in the 747, but it only activates, if you select the proper autopilot mode. This is indicated by a green light, should any autothrottle mode be active. If it automatically disengages by a mode change, it outputs only an advisory type message. Without audio alert.

 

[garyw]

If it automatically disengages by a mode change, it outputs only an advisory type message. Without audio alert.

I believe that on the checklist one of the pre-landing checks is to check for any alerts.....

 

[Urwumpe]

I believe that on the checklist one of the pre-landing checks is to check for any alerts.....

Yes, and you would also not get this kind of advisory outside your field of view, since you need to push a button right next to the "A/T" button-indicator for causing it.

If you disconnect the autothrust by the buttons on the thrust levers, you would get a loud caution message, the same happens if the autothrust is disconnected by a failure.

Pressing the buttons on the thrust levers twice silences the alert.

Also, the autothrust changes its mode from IDLE (reduce thrust to idle) to HOLD (keep thrust level)... in HOLD the autothrust servos on the thrust levers are disabled, you can manually move the throttle. You need to select a different autopilot mode to leave the HOLD function (or have another automatic autopilot mode change activate a new autothrust mode, for example during take-off, where it switches from HOLD to THR REF by the take-off logic)

There are quite a few autothrust modes in the 777: THR, THR REF, IDLE, HOLD and SPD.

Also, the three current autopilot modes are displayed in the PFD in a very visible way: You have on the top of the display three status boxes, each containing in large friendly green letters (usually) the currently engaged mode for autothrust, roll control and pitch control. The armed mode, that will be engaged next, is written in small white letters below it. Once a new mode becomes active for the first time, a white rectangle is drawn around the mode label.



The usual A/T mode during landing should be SPD, which keeps the displayed IAS in the selection window.

 

[Screamer7]

In FSX some advance panels also have lnav and vnav autopilot modes.
I know what lnav is but are not sure about vnav.
I know vnav it is related to the fmc and control altitude.
I also noted that in this model when you set the flaps for landing, it automatically configure the speed settings for the landing, regardless what speed settings you dialed in to the auto pilot.
I also noted that if you go to fast with full flaps, it automatically release the flaps to a lower setting.
Is the real B 777 like that too?

 

[Urwumpe]

I know what lnav is but are not sure about vnav.
I know vnav it is related to the fmc and control altitude.

[...]

Is the real B 777 like that too?

VNAV is vertical navigation, just like LNAV is lateral navigation, it uses the information from FMC or pilot input to control the altitude or vertical speed. You have in detail: VNAV SPD (hold FMC speed), VNAV PTH (path, hold FMC altitude or descend path) and VNAV ALT (altitude hold when VNAV causes conflicts)

And yes, it is exactly like that.

---------- Post added 07-13-13 at 12:08 AM ---------- Previous post was 07-12-13 at 12:41 PM ----------

One of the victims was really killed by a fire truck. She became covered by foam and was then not seen, when the truck moved to a new station.

 

[garyw]

One of the victims was really killed by a fire truck. She became covered by foam and was then not seen, when the truck moved to a new station.

Damn, that's terrible. I hope the crew involved are not charged with anything as it really was just a horrible accident.

Ironically that makes the 777 safer as it's only one fatality in a 777 crash now.

 

[Urwumpe]

Damn, that's terrible. I hope the crew involved are not charged with anything as it really was just a horrible accident.

Ironically that makes the 777 safer as it's only one fatality in a 777 crash now.

Yes, but you have to admit: It had been also a whole lot of luck, since the Heathrow crash or this one could have been far more deadly. But the number of accidents is really low in the last 12 years, really a great plane from that view.

 

[Hielor]

One of the victims was really killed by a fire truck. She became covered by foam and was then not seen, when the truck moved to a new station.

Report I read said that they confirmed she'd been run over by the truck, but not whether or not she'd been killed by the truck or had already been dead.

 

[Zatnikitelman]

Apparently, a third victim has died from the crash.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/12/us/asiana-airlines-crash/index.html

 

[jarmonik]

Ironically that makes the 777 safer as it's only one fatality in a 777 crash now.

You should count critically injured as well. A lot of people wont live a normal life after that accident.

 

[Andy44]

Apparently, a third victim has died from the crash.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/12/us/asiana-airlines-crash/index.html

That's awful, and it's a reminder that for several people this accident is far from over. Some walked away from the wreck but others are in a world of hurt for many days.

 

[Screamer7]

:shrug:

 

[Aviator]

Just in from KTVU news - the names of the 4 pilots on board.

If that won't teach them to get their facts straight nothing will! :rofl:

 

[Quick_Nick]

Just in from KTVU news - the names of the 4 pilots on board.
Asiana Pilots names from KTVU News - YouTube

If that won't teach them to get their facts straight nothing will! :rofl:

Saw that on Gawker (via Facebook). Wasn't sure about posting it though, since some people seem to get touchy about it. No need for discussions of racism or of bad journalism in this thread of course.
(And I agree with you, and think the answer is 'nothing will' )

 

[Zatnikitelman]

Wait...you mean that was a real newscast??? Seriously!?

 

[astrosammy]

Ouch...
Yes, seriously... http://www.ntsb.gov/news/2013/130712.html

 

[Aviator]

It was, apparently it was an intern at the NTSB's fault.

"Earlier today, in response to an inquiry from a media outlet, a summer intern acted outside the scope of his authority when he erroneously confirmed the names of the flight crew on the aircraft.

http://www.ntsb.gov/news/2013/130712.html

 

[garyw]

More like this:

NTSB1: "So the media are after crew names again, we should just make something up to get them off our backs"

NTSB2: "Nah, they'd spot it"

NTSB3: "Betcha they don't!"

NTSB1: "You're on!"

I hope the bet was worth the reprimand.....

 

[Urwumpe]

At least, it was a good practical joke about paying attention what you write as journalist. Should happen more often :lol: