BBC: Are we changing planet Earth?

Well, the latest reason for the German petrol companies to raise the gasoline prices was:

"Germans buy less fuel and our infrastructure is expensive, so we had to raise the prices."

So much to the forces of the market.
 
A climate change thread not become somewhat heated? What a travesty. :lol:

Its of course true that humans have some effect on every one of Earth's systems that involve us. Cities create their own local weather patterns.

Its good that the debate is about methods, data, models and significance. But of course there is so much data and divers methods used at every step of analysis that even the experts aren't as confident as they'd like.

So everything gets reduced to judgment. Which is one of humanity's most inconsistent skills. :)

Yay, I said absolutely nothing! Personally I don't have the smallest care in the world regarding climate change. If the climate changes, I'll adapt.
 
I think John Christy (Climatologist and writer for the IPCC) has some wise things to say about Climate Change.

"As someone who worked on the IPCC...I can assure you that there are many disagreements, that the final words do not represent the iron-clad truth about something, it's an evolving document that often makes compromises, and consensus is a political notion, it is not something based on things that are hard and fast."

Carbon dioxide has increased 35% in the previous 150 years due to human activity, and is increasing about 0.5% per year. "We know that it's radiative force will increase. There is no question about that."

Mean Global Surface Temperature rose 0.7°C in the past 100 years.

Mean Surface Temperature is NOT an appropriate index for the greenhouse effect because urbanization and irrigation dramatically impacts the circulation of surface and atmospheric year at night, distorting the surface temperature measurements upwards.

Surface temperature measurements of California central valley disclose that the temperature at the valley floor has increased dramatically (4-5° Celsius!) over the last 100 years, while the surrounding foothills have cooled slightly. He comments, "That tells you right there that this is not a greenhouse gas effect. It's going in the opposite way of what greenhouse theory indicates... it is a false signal. It is not greenhouse warming that is occurring there, it is the development of surface warming that is occurring there...Humans up are causing that rise, but it's not greenhouse gas effects."

Greenhouse gas models predict that the greatest change (the biggest signal in the data) in the atmosphere caused by greenhouse gases will be in the tropics and the troposphere. However, when we examine the data sets of changes in temperature in the tropics, they show far less warming (median of actual measurements = 0.05°C/decade) then greenhouse theory would predict (0.16°C/decade). He comments that the UAH Satellite Data through 9/2007 shows that the 20 years of data before the 1997-1998 El Nino shows no pattern, but that "there is an upward trend in [this data], I suspect it's due in part to the extra greenhouse gases, but the magnitude of the trend is much less than what models suggest."

If we double the carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, without any other feedbacks or interactions, the surface temperature will increase approximately 1°C.

The uncertainties, he suggests, are in the associated feedback loops that an increase in temperature or carbon dioxide will trigger. "Water vapor and clouds, by far, dominate the greenhouse effect. And they are variable. I mean, they vary. The greenhouse effect of clouds and water vapor vary more than the whole carbon dioxide effect. Climate models suggest this, well, they don't suggest it they show it. That when you add carbon dioxide, that the clouds and water vapor effect multiplies...It's a positive feedback effect…" He also says, "all of those feedbacks are where the enormous types of warming scenarios you are, that are foisted upon you by the media come from. A climate model will have a trigger in it, that if you add a little bit of heat due to carbon dioxide, then this trigger occurs and the heating goes off the charts. So that's where the uncertainties really are."

However, he points out that the latest research of satellite data Spencer, et al 2007 into the cloud variations in the tropics demonstrate, not a positive, but a negative feedback effect. "It turns out that there is a negative feedback. In other words, as temperature rises, the way the clouds respond is to cool the climate. It's like a thermostat. It turns out that the clouds that cause warming, cirrus clouds, shrink whenever the temperature goes up, and that allows radiation to escape to space. And so it cools. It's an automatic kind if cooling mechanism. This is in the opposite direction of climate models, and missing a feedback like that will lead you astray very quickly...The models overestimate [poorly charaterize] this feedback and that's why they show this warming about which everyone gets so excited."

If we enacted legislation that mandated that the average MPG per fleet of cars from every automobile manufacturer in the USA be above 43 MPG and people complied, then using the IPCC estimate for temperature over the next century, it would lower the temperature 0.01° (1/100th of a degree) by 2100. If every car manufacturer in the world met this standard, it would lower the predicted temperature 0.03° (3/100th of a degree) by 2100.

And then take some time to read the following interview from last year (and yes, oh irony it is on the BBC site)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7081331.stm

Follow the herd.
 
Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/5012266.stm


Attenborough: Climate is changing

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Sir David's concerns

Climate change is the biggest challenge facing the world, naturalist Sir David Attenborough has said.
The veteran broadcaster said scientific data clearly showed that human-induced climate change was now beyond doubt.
Sir David, 80, added that everyone had a responsibility to change their behaviour, including being less wasteful and more energy efficient.
It is the first time Sir David has voiced his concerns in public about the impacts of global warming.
His comments come ahead of a two-part BBC series in which he examines the impacts of global warming on the Earth.
Sir David has been criticised by environmentalists in the past for not speaking out on the matter.
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If we do care about our grandchildren then we have to do something
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Sir David Attenborough

"If you take one moment in time, you can't be sure what the trend is," he told the BBC.
"Now... when we look at the graphs of rising ocean temperatures, rising carbon dioxide in the atmosphere and so on, we know that they are climbing far more steeply than can be accounted for by the natural oscillation of the weather."
Sir David, whose distinguished broadcasting career spans more than half a century, says everyone has a responsibility to act: "What people (must) do is to change their behaviour and their attitudes.
"If we do care about our grandchildren then we have to do something, and we have to demand that our governments do something.
His comments came as a UK parliamentary body, the All-Party Environment Group, issued a report labelling the government a "climate laggard" for its record on reducing emissions.
Climate sceptic
Sir David, whose natural history programmes have been watched by millions of people around the world, is the latest high-profile figure to say the world is facing a climate crisis.
The Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr Rowan Williams; the government's chief scientist Sir David King, and former Royal Society president Sir Robert May have all expressed public concern on the issue.
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Sir David's programmes have been watch by millions worldwide



This week, former US Vice President Al Gore has been at the Cannes Film Festival to promote a documentary on climate change.
Mr Gore told festival goers that the world was facing a "planetary emergency" due to global warming.
The man who beat him to the White House in the 2000 US presidential elections, George W Bush, remains sceptical about the influence of human activity on the state of the planet's atmosphere.
He says binding targets to reduce greenhouse emissions are inefficient and would harm the US economy.
Last year, he launched a partnership alongside five Asia-Pacific nations to promote technological solutions for reducing the world's dependency on fossil fuels. Sir David will present a two-part television programme that will explore how climate change is altering the planet, from drought-hit rainforest to the decline of polar bears. Sir David Attenborough presents Are We Changing Planet Earth? on BBC One, Wednesday, 24 May 2006, at 2100 BST


-----Posted Added-----


Some extra source of data
http://www.ipcc.ch/graphics/graphics.htm
 
There is a bit of an expertise problem with this issue. Sir David, The Archbishop of Canterbury, and Politicians are not climatologists. As a naturalist Sir David can say, "If the climate changes to X (A possible outcome stated from climatologist Z), species Y does not thrive well in the new environment and may die out." And everyone else can say, "We think that think that species Y dying out is bad therefore we want to avoid outcome X stated as possible by climatologist Z. We hope to avoid this by avoiding parameters W.

And of course there is a source of error at every level. Understanding how to control parameters W, what actual bearing W has on outcome X, and how outcome X really effects Y.

I just don't like it very much when someone claims expertise in a field where they don't have it.
 
I just don't like it very much when someone claims expertise in a field where they don't have it.

Watch the documentary and you will see.

Source http://www.nacion.com/ln_ee/2008/octubre/02/aldea1721915.html
Interview with Nicolas Brown

¿Era usted escéptico ante el tema antes de esto?
(Ríe) Antes del 2006 yo creía que la atmósfera del mundo era demasiado grande y los humanos demasiado pequeños como para que pudiéramos influir en algo. Que los cambios eran un proceso natural. Luego de estas producciones admito que soy completamente lo opuesto. Ahora soy un fiel activista contra el calentamiento global. Sé que es algo real porque lo he visto perjudicar a personas, animales y plantas en muchos países desde Tasmania, Australia, China, Alaska, Amazonas, Rusia y Europa.
“No me crean a mí. Hay miles de científicos que trabajan en el mundo sobre este tema y que tienen evidencias. La gente solo tiene que levantar la cabeza y ver que el cambio climático es un problema que nos afecta a todos. En todo el mundo hay gente haciendo cosas. Solo hay gobiernos, como el de Estados Unidos, que dificultan a las personas compartir esa información”.
Pero, hay científicos que defienden que es un ciclo natural...
Es verdad, pero usando la metáfora del futbol diría que en el equipo de los que están alarmados por el cambio climático están todos los Maradona; en el de los escépticos hay muy respetables, pero son mucho menos.
“El informe del Panel Intergubernamental sobre Cambio Climático (IPCC) es muy claro en los daños y eso que todo el mundo coincide en que son muy conservadores. La realidad es mucho peor de lo que advierten”.

Translation:

Were you a skeptic before this documentary?
(Smile) Before 2006 I believed that atmosphere was too big and and humans too small to exert some influence, changes were a natural process. After these productions I admit I am the exact opposite. Now I am an activist against Global Warming. I know it is real because I have seen the harm on people, plants and animals in many countries including Tasmania, Australia, China, Alaska, Amazon, Russia, Europe.

"Do not believe me. Thousands of scientists in the world are working on this and have evidences. People just need to raise their heads and see that it is a problem that is affecting everyone. Around the world there are people doing things about it. There are governments like US, that make things difficult to share this information with people"

But, there are scientists who say that it is a natural cycle...

It is true, but using the metaphore of soccer I'd say that those who are alarmed with climate change are the Maradonnas; and there are some skeptics but they are the very few.

"The report of Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) is very clear, regarding damage and everyone share the opinion that they are very conservative. Reality is worst than that."
 
Before 2006 I believed that atmosphere was too big and and humans too small to exert some influence

And yet it was human activity which created the bloody great big hole in the ozone layer through the use of aerosols. Had we not discovered the problem in time, we could very well be on the brink of extinction.

In fact, I once read that Thomas Midgley, in developing CFCs, was also playing around with a different chemical along with Freon. Had he chosen that chemical (my memory is a blank on what the chemical was...) instead of Freon, the ozone layer would have been depleted by the 1970s - and bear in mind that we didn't discover the ozone layer hole until the 1980s - and we'd all be dying of cancer!

So humans certainly can have a huge effect on the planet.
 
Nuclear power needs water to cool down the reactor.
In France they had to shut down nuclear power plants because of lack of water.
In a warmer world you would have less energy production time, specially during heat waves.

Instead, geothermic energy is about heating water with underground heat and moving turbines. It is cleaner and safer.
 
But nuclear power plants don't need drinking water. It is much simpler producing water acceptable for powering nuclear power plants, as producing water which we can drink or which we can use for watering our farms.

What happened in France was more likely the cause of rather bad logistics... France build nuclear power plants in large amounts in some phase, often without real location survey.
 
GregBurch;
I agree that fossil fuel technology should be done away for any reason whatever.
Any reason being form new technological advancement to helping little John Doe with his asthma.
Yet, how it is that "possibly (in all irresponsible manner of caution even) adverting a climatological catastrophe" is not one of them; is a statement I look forward to read.
 
GregBurch;
I agree that fossil fuel technology should be done away for any reason whatever.
Any reason being form new technological advancement to helping little John Doe with his asthma.
Yet, how it is that "possibly (in all irresponsible manner of caution even) adverting a climatological catastrophe" is not one of them; is a statement I look forward to read.

I'm not sure I understand you, but I THINK you're asking how I can be such a strong advocate of developing non-fossil-fuel energy sources, but also be opposed to what I see as unsupported climate-change alarmism.

If that is your question, then the answer is that I put limits on the extent to which I will reach out to political allies. Just because I share one goal with someone doesn't mean that I can ignore all the matters in which I disagree with that person in order to achieve the one common goal.

Climate change hysteria has become a shield for a whole host of policies with which I strongly disagree. As one very important simple example, the hard-Green/Red alliance is reflexively opposed to nuclear power, something that to me reveals that their agenda to remake society is far more important to them than "saving the planet." More generally, their advocacy for the "Precautionary Principle" has become a sweet trap with which to seduce policy makers into opposition to scientific and economic progress and liberty on a wide front of issues, something I very strongly oppose.
 
You are correct that rampant ignorance have made a pressing issue into a blind leading the blind orgy of random acts, with costly tag, just for the sake of easing the minds of the activists.
But we are still divided on this issue.
I have people I do business with telling me that there should be nothing done, but to find more oil and continue on as we have because "the" global warming (its is seen now as something separate from ourselves) is a natural process... so the coin seems to have two sides on both sides of these propositions.
On one side some have sunk into hysteria, as you very accurately put it, and on the other a form of cynical denial has taken the place of simple denial. With an an attitude of "this is God's world and everything is according to his plan, there is nothing we can do because there is nothing wrong".
It is towards this attitudes that we all should be united against.
When a group speaks up for changes to cut emissions *to help with GB* They are ridiculed. The attempts to parody climate change activist icons should be instead replaced by more good science to find out what is really happening.

Unfortunately the final analysis from those who "dispel" AGB always comes back to an utterly disgusting dictum modus operandis. "Go on as you have and think no more about anything but oil...".

Climates on spheres in this region around the sun can go very badly... just look at Venus and Mars. And understanding and allowing a chemistry that has supported life on this one exception to the rule of a planet is paramount.

I, for one, am almost ready to compromise for nuclear power, but Hydrogen still sounds sexier and much safer long and short term.
BUT AGAIN, the great divide on the argument has to be centered by good science.
I am with you in that the politics are getting too darn clumsy...

So I guess I agree.
Damn.. :P
 
So I guess I agree.
Damn.. :P

Don't worry. So long as you don't do it too often, you'll be alright.

In the meantime, if by "hydrogen" in your last post you mean using hydrogen as a fuel for internal combustion and/or fuel cell power, I'm afraid that's just not going to happen. The basic physics is not very good (it takes energy to make it) and the practical chemistry of storing and transporting it is downright terrible. Fission-generated electricity, on the other hand, is 1) here and now technology and 2) utilizes an existing, robust distribution infrastructure. To me, a massive commitment to fission-nuke power is a no-brainer and has become a litmus test of rationality for me. Any American who's against it is not really concerned about the environment or national security and prosperity.

With that said, I have seen some promising recent work on local generation of hydrogen by photovoltaics that could be part of a very local generation system, i.e. generating hydrogen through electrolysis as a local energy storage medium to be used in local fuel cells for off-sun periods.
 
What do I think about climate change? Do I think it's real? Well, I'll just put it this way....


I haven't seen snow on the ground for more then 24 hours in my home town in the last few winters... where when I used to be a kid, we'd play in 3 feet of snow from the end of November to February and sometimes March.

The three lakes we have here (that were created by the excavation of coal - the collapsing of the soil and old parts of the coal mine) haven't frozen over in a long long time. When I was little, we'd skate and play hockey on the ice. It was even thick enough to drive on it with a car.

When I was a kid, it would take me 20 to 30 minutes to get to school in the snow, when it usually took me 5... but those were the good old days.

With that come a lot of problems. Insects that usually hibernate through the winter and get killed off in large numbers are now going crazy. Flies and mosquito started appearing during summers in large numbers.
Bees are starting to disappear, partly because they've been killed off this year because of toxic pesticides farmers used, but mostly because they've started migrating to the north cos of the hotter summers.

Slovenia has been blessed with abundance of water... but I'm afraid that's gonna change. When I was a kid, me and parents used to go mountain hiking and on the way down, we'd slide down the glacier on the north side of the mountain that didn't melt during the summer. In the last few years, that glacier has disappeared completely and our largest glacier is disappearing very fast as well and won't survive more then a few more years.




Take it from me, global warming is real.
I bet if you look around your area, you will see changes on the scale that you can notice.
 
Take it from me, global warming is real.
I bet if you look around your area, you will see changes on the scale that you can notice.

I have no doubt that there has been a planetary warming trend ... no doubt at all. I think there are serious questions about the causes of the warming and the extent to which its continuation can be predicted with reasonable accuracy.

Note there have been fairly extreme weather changes on Jupiter recently.

... just sayin'
 
I have no doubt that there has been a planetary warming trend ... no doubt at all. I think there are serious questions about the causes of the warming and the extent to which its continuation can be predicted with reasonable accuracy.

Note there have been fairly extreme weather changes on Jupiter recently.

... just sayin'

:hesaid:

Instead of this fossil-phobia, I think we'd be better off looking at the amount of energy we use.
 
I don't think it has to do with the solar output increasing, after all, I just read a NASA article a couple of weeks ago about the solar activity being on it's lowest levels since we started measuring it with our satellites.

It is well known that Jupiter radiates about twice as much energy as it receives from the Sun. So I would think that Jupiter's weather change might be the result of it's own planetary change, too.

And for people who think that the atmosphere is just to big for humans to have an effect on, I'll just put it this way:

Two thirds of the atmosphere is located within the height of Mount Everest. It's not *such* a big volume after all... and humans have been messing around for a long time now. It's been over 100 years since the industrial revolution has started.

We're spewing ever increasing amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere while at the same time cutting down ever more trees that turn CO2 back into O2... This has been happening for over 100 years. Granted, the CO2 level is just a bit higher then it usually is - it's not like it's doubled - , but we've only started feeling the first effects of global warming. If we continue on this destructive path, the effects will soon multiply.

We know that there is a direct connection between CO2 and planet heating up. For one, the records in the ice cores give us a direct indication. Pockets of air are trapped in the ice and from there we can analyze the composition of the air and from a certain oxygen isotope we can get the temperature at that time.
We can also look beyond our planet:
Venus! We know that Venus has a thick atmosphere made of a lot of CO2 and it's surface temperature is waaaaay higher then on any other planet, even though Mercury is much closer to the Sun and despite the fact that EM radiation (every light, including IR - heat), falls off quite fast with distance: r^3

I've heard claims like this though:
"Mars has mostly CO2 in it's atmosphere and the average temperature of Mars is waaaaay below Earth's... see, CO2 doesn't cause global warming!"
Well, the big problem with that claim is that Mars' surface static pressure is like... 8 Pa or something... where on Earth, it's 100 000 Pa :P
So there's an obvious difference in the two planets' atmosphere thicknesses.


That's why we can say that burning of fossil fuels is causing global warming.
 
EDIT: Incidentally, I just noticed New Scientist recently wrote an article on the "myth" that the Hockey Stick had been (successfully) proven wrong.

I've not read that, few weeks ago :

The emblem of the climatic reheating consolidated (in french)
06 October 2008

http://www.lemonde.fr/planete/artic...ffement-climatique-conforte_1103455_3244.html

on the investigations of Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (PNAS)

Climate 'hockey stick' is revived
1 September 2008

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7592575.stm
 
I've heard claims like this though:
"Mars has mostly CO2 in it's atmosphere and the average temperature of Mars is waaaaay below Earth's... see, CO2 doesn't cause global warming!"
Well, the big problem with that claim is that Mars' surface static pressure is like... 8 Pa or something... where on Earth, it's 100 000 Pa :P
So there's an obvious difference in the two planets' atmosphere thicknesses.

I would never make that argument. It's too stupid even for me, and I'm pretty stupid.

That's why we can say that burning of fossil fuels is causing global warming.

I don't deny that anthropogenic CO2 has an impact on climate. I just don't know if there's enough evidence to be very sure about how much impact it has.

Ultimately, since I support getting off the fossil fuel tit as soon as possible, I get to have a clean conscience on the whole thing.

But I think we can kick the fossil fuel habit AND use plenty of energy -- more than we do now -- and be safe and clean. We don't HAVE to go back to a pre-industrial state to be nice to Mother Earth. But at the rate we're going, we'll achieve the Green dream of going back to the Middle Ages soon enough ...
 
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