Poll Can the universe be understood? (and described)

[Hielor]

There will always be things science, technology, and religions have no answer to.

Religions have the "answer" to everything, that's what makes them so appealing to so many people.

Science looks at the question and tries to answer each question on its own, to come up with an explanation for it based on study and inquiry.

Religion performs no study or inquiry, and doesn't even really need a question at all, because the answer is always the same anyway.

 

[Eagle]

Religions have the "answer" to everything, that's what makes them so appealing to so many people.

Science looks at the question and tries to answer each question on its own, to come up with an explanation for it based on study and inquiry.

Religion performs no study or inquiry, and doesn't even really need a question at all, because the answer is always the same anyway.

Engineering says, "I can make this happen most of the time."
Accounting says, "You can't afford it."
Marketing says, "We made some extra promises."

 

[Juanelm]

Answer A has already been proven wrong by experiments, god does play dice with the universe.

I don't think anyone would choose answer D (unless he is a fanatic)

Answer B, maybe maybe not, we don't know yet.

I think answer C is correct, since by definition science will always have the possibility of being wrong, it can never reach 100% certainty on any claim, so it will always remain an approximation to reality.

 

[Eagle]

Answer A has already been proven wrong by experiments, god does play dice with the universe.

I would say 'playing dice' isn't accurate. The probabilistic part of quantum mechanics is because we do not know the state of every electron and subatomic particle present in the system. We do however have probabilities of what outcomes are possible.

So it less that God plays dice, than we play dice to guess what will happen.

If we (magically) had that knowledge, we might find the universe to be surprisingly deterministic.

 

[tblaxland]

If we (magically) had that knowledge, we might find the universe to be surprisingly deterministic.

You can't have that knowledge. Do not fall into the trap of thinking that the uncertainty principle is just a measurement artefact, it is a fundamental property of the universe. Electrons, for example, just do not have a definite position and momentum.

 

[Juanelm]

I would say 'playing dice' isn't accurate. The probabilistic part of quantum mechanics is because we do not know the state of every electron and subatomic particle present in the system. We do however have probabilities of what outcomes are possible.

So it less that God plays dice, than we play dice to guess what will happen.

If we (magically) had that knowledge, we might find the universe to be surprisingly deterministic.

Einstein thought that the uncertainty comes from not knowing certain information, that, even if we did not know it, it was there. He thought reality was deterministic, but it just was that we didn't know certain things (and perhaps were unable to know them) to always know the outcome.

But amazingly a series of experiments were made about 20 years ago to find the answer to this question, and actually Einstein got proven wrong with a series of experiments that proved that actually reality is 100% probabilistic, there are no hidden variables, and we cannot know certain things because actually they don't have any state. There is no way of knowing the outcome of anything with 100% certainty, even in theory, because the universe makes it up as it goes.

I'm still amazed by that...

 

[MAraujo]

But amazingly a series of experiments were made about 20 years ago to find the answer to this question, and actually Einstein got proven wrong with a series of experiments that proved that actually reality is 100% probabilistic, there are no hidden variables, and we cannot know certain things because actually they don't have any state. There is no way of knowing the outcome of anything with 100% certainty, even in theory, because the universe makes it up as it goes.

The fact the universe would appear to be probabilistic is a prediction of determinism. You would need to know all of the information in the universe for it not to be probabilistic. This doesn't make this a very practical discussion for humans, but interesting none the less. I find it fascinating that throughout the history of science, people have always deemed topics on the cusp of our understanding to be "elemental". Up until Neils Bohr we thought the atom was elemental, up until Thomas Wright we thought the milky way was the universe, and so on. I'm not saying that quantum mechanics and the probabilistic universe are wrong (I lack the evidence to do so) but I am saying that considering all that we know in the universe, the quantum piece of the puzzle doesn't rule out determinism just yet. But I would like to hear more about these experiments you speak of.

 

[Eagle]

..., there are no hidden variables, ...

Are you sure?

 

[StarLost]

The poll was inaccurate right from the get-go. Which universe? Mathematics has already "proven" the existance of multiple universes.

If you can't understand one, how can you understand the others. And to completely understand one, you have to understand the whys and hows of every part of it.

As a male, you can't. Look back on what Urwumpe said. Then explain why women ask questions they don't want answers to. Or why they ask "do these pants make my backside look fat?" If you cannot answer that, and you can't, then the rest is automatic, the universe cannot be understood.

Heinlein said it rightly: " The universe never did make sense; I suspect it was built on government contract".

 

[Urwumpe]

Mathematics has already "proven" the existance of multiple universes.

Well, not really proven... rather shown that it is not impossible.

 

[Moonwalker]

If you can't understand one, how can you understand the others. And to completely understand one, you have to understand the whys and hows of every part of it.

While to understand the universe would also include to know everything which is going on on our home planet, every single peace and part of it, the macro and micro-universe/physics, which very doubtful would ever be the case (both are or can be endlessly in my point of view by the way).

Asking the knowledge of the universe is like to ask to know everything and to become immortal and superhumanly. It is a part of human megalomania, of people who mostly wear glasses and do not have a girlfriend and a real/normal life.. :rofl:

 

[MAraujo]

When it comes to actual humans understanding the universe...
Go try explaining the concept of government and taxes to a pigeon. You can talk all day, but there are geometric limits to what any organism can comprehend (including us). The brain is narrowly adapted to conditions on earth's surface. Of course we cant see the whole picture, and just like my friend the political pigeon, we will never even know what we are missing.

 

[kneejo]

just a little religious ranting;

imagine your dreams.. think about how infinitely big your dream world can be.. it's only limited by only your imagination.

now imagine God.. (ahem..) a body-less (yesyes) intelligence dreaming.. get the picture? it's all Gods big dream, and we're all in it.

or maybe not.. but that's left to be discovered, not discussed, imho

It's such a shame to leave the creator out of thinking of the big picture, just because he's not in the science-books.

 

[atuhalpa]

"Not only is the Universe stranger than we think, it is stranger than we can think."
— Werner Heisenberg (Across the Frontiers)

I think (hehe) that says it all.

 

[kneejo]

The brain is narrowly adapted to conditions on earth's surface. Of course we cant see the whole picture,

I'd have to disagree with that.. maybe your brain is more narrow than mine.. being an artist, I can tell you it's not about the brain, but about imagination, something that is definitely not limited to what we can observe with our senses.

And there is the little notion that science cannot prove, yet, that consciousness can exist without a physical body. which is the defining aspect of God and probably also our human spirit, after death, and according to many people, also during life. We are conditioned to think that matter and the physical universe are the only aspects of the universe, because we have 'forgotten' the part that is called spirit. In older days, scientists have always included God in their concepts, until about 1 to 2 centuries ago, when science started spinning more and more of their god-less ideas, without even considering God in it. Believers (justly) see the work of the devil in this so-called progressive thinking.

 

[Moonwalker]

Imagination is the result of what our brain is capable of

Religion and its conception of god is not natural science. It is two different things. Religion is a conception of certain ideologies, significantly based on superstition due to early lack of knowledge. The scientific method: is a strict rational method to observe and analyze the environment and gain knowledge.

Separating religion and natural science is based on the same reason why separating religion and state: rationality.

 

[computerex]

I wonder if you can teach a dog physics.