Gaming Commodore 64 turns 30: What do today's kids make of it?

Using the web and high speed is not the same. Sitting in a darkened room typing DOS command line and using modem software with that big ASCII text, listening to the modem squealing, and wierdly connecting with people who live within a few miles but whom you will never meet, to discuss the finer points of the latest Star Trek: The Next Generation episode or to discuss fighter strategies for Falcon 3.0, that was where it's at!
 
back in those days we used a radio shack color computer. While the 64 had superior sound and graphics, the color computer had better disk i/o and a better processor. What impressed me alot about the 64 was the video chip had 9 sprite levels, which made programming games alot easier, the chip itself even had a 10th sprite level that could accept a video signal, so you could effectively create text or graphics with video behind it (like you see on the news for example) the 64 itself didn't support it, but the chip did. and SID was extremely advanced for sound. The biggest drawback to the 64 was it's disk drive. It had a serial interface, so loading off of a disk took just as long as tape. The color computer had a true disk system that supported both floppy and hard drives.

Actually, the CO-CO had NO drive controllers, or ANY hardware I/O. Drive controllers were optional (but often "bundled" so so many don't realize that). Hard drives were only available with OS-9, and not available until the mid-80's.

While the 6809 was a more powerful processor, it ran at a slower speed (.89 Mhz, as opposed to the C-64's 1 Mhz) until the Co-Co 3 in 1986 (the Amiga was introduced one year later and blew the doors off the Co-Co in pretty much every way).

With the C-64, the drive controller was part of the floppy drive. This helped keep the cost of the computer low, but increased the cost of the drives considerably - about $250 each IIRC. Since the drive had it's own processor and memory, there were some neat tricks that allowed yo to use that memory, and even the processor, to "supplement" the on-board resources.

With the Co-Co, which had no I/O specific hardware, ALL i/o operations were handled in software - and used 100% of the processor's cycles. While the Co-Co would load a program faster, any disk i/o performed during run time meant putting the program "on hold" for the duration of the disk access. With a C-64, you could perform disk i/o in the background - loading new sections of a map for instance - without having the game suddenly freeze for a few seconds. This is one of the reasons why many games - especially flight sims - never got ported to the Co-Co.

Overall we viewed the coco as the better system as it was far more powerful of a computer system, yet "good graphics and sound" goes a long way, and the C64 had those advantages. The color computer also had a rudimentary OS with functions to get a directory entry, copy, delete, etc. C64 lacked ANY OS whatsoever, so to get a directory listing (get this) you had to type:
LOAD "$",8,1
LIST
to get a folder listing!!!
Meanwhile Color Computer's DOS had "dir" for directory. Oh, the fun of the old days... looking back both machines were good in their areas of strength, and overall albeit different strengths, about equal machines.

Early Co-Cos used MSDOS, later models first loaded the MSDOS to RAM, then applied a Microware patch during boot-up. Unfortunately, this caused quite a variety of bugs and hardware incompatibilities. With the CoCo 3, OS-9 (a Unix type OS) was available, starting in '86. By this time, GEOS was available for the C-64, which provided a Mac-like graphical environment using the joystick as a mouse. GEOS could be loaded from floppy, and was also available in cartridge form.

Of course, by '86, Commodore was focused on it's upcoming Amiga platform which rendered the C-64/128 and Co-Co's more or less obsolete.

Until the Co-Co 3, the only thing a Co-Co did better than a C-64 was floating point math, which it did about 10% faster - but only if there was no I/O going on at the time. The Co-Co couldn't even display lower case letters without a hardware modification, and the Co-Co 1 had a "chicklet" keyboard almost as unusable as the Sinclair's membrane - so it was useless in an office setting. It had lousy graphics and sound, plus the I/O issue, so it wasn't much good for the home market due to poor gaming performance.

The Co-Co 3 was starting to become a real computer (it even had lower case letters and could display 8 colors at once!), but internal politics at Tandy killed it off in favor of the Tandy-1000 - a particularly poor IBM imitation that pretty much ended Tandy's aspirations in the PC market.
 
The C64 game that I got absolutely the most mileage out of was "The Adventure Construction Set". It was one of those "Build your own "RPG" kind of games. Even to this day, there isn't any "build your own RPG" game that has so many options or is so configurable. You could create ANY type of adventure (limited by disk space and graphics similar to Ultima 2 or 3) you wanted with this thing. The cool thing about it was that you could design EVERYTHING... including graphics, magic spells, scripted events, items, weapons, characters, and each thing was amazingly customizable. That program was years ahead of it's time. Nowadays, whenever I find an adventure constructions set, it's usually locked into one genera, like fantasy, or sci-fi. That program allowed you to do ANYTHING. You weren't limited to ANY genera.
Using that program, I re-created a giant monster Godzilla-type movie in RPG form, created a huge deathmatch labyrinth where up to four players could roam around this huge world sized maze, avoiding traps, getting power-ups and weapons, for the point of hunting each other down and killing each other. I re-created the movie Aliens. I did so much with that game. The game's real breakthrough was that it allowed multiple players to play in the same adventure together at the same time. No other rpg did that. Even now, it's hard to find a "build your own" rpg that allows that, as well as the sheer customization that that game allowed.
I must have had 20+ floppy disks just with adventures and constructed deathmatch mazes on them.

There's a fan made reproduction of it for Windows, called "Adventure Construction Kit", but unfortunately it lacks that multiplayer that made the original so much fun.
 
Who can forget "Legend of Red Dragon" and "Tradewars"?

Ah, the old BBS's! Before the World Wide Web, before the Internet as we know it, there was the local Joe and his BBS! And news groups, and Fidonet, etc. I kind of miss those days. No going back; modern tech and speed and data rates have jaded us and spoiled the simpler times.

You guys are REALLY bringing me back! :)
 
oh man that loading noise brought back some memories... although I only ever had the rubber doormat style ZX spectrum... of which my hamster chewed some of the buttons off!

I think the only real purpose these machines now serve is to give old folks the ability to say: kids of today don't know how lucky they are, what with their itelephones and xmachines!
 
I think the only real purpose these machines now serve is to give old folks the ability to say: kids of today don't know how lucky they are, what with their itelephones and xmachines!

No, they are still useful for teaching basic stuff. The Sinclair machine has BASIC built in and you can start coding the instant you switch it on. PCs all used to come with QBASIC that you could access during the boot-up or from the command line, but I don't think the PC-based laptop I'm typing this on has any built-in language editor. If it does, nobody thought it important enough to tell me it's there; everything today is plug-and-play and designed to allow non-geeks to get online. The roots of computer geekdom are getting buried under a blanket of convenience and user-friendliness.
 
The roots of computer geekdom are getting buried under a blanket of convenience and user-friendliness.

I wish it was just that. What happens is that users are supposed to ignore the inner working of their machines and use them exactly as their makers want them to be used and nothing more. Curiosity is now almost a crime, ask the wrong question and you're a hacker/pirate/terrorist.
 
Qbasic got replaced with "Microsoft Visual Studio".
You CAN however still get the Qbasic runtime so you can run all those old Qbasic games like "Gorilla Basic" and my old favorite, "TNM".

---------- Post added at 06:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:18 PM ----------

Kids today don't even realize that when you used to buy a home computer back then, that if you wanted to do anything with it, you pretty much had to write the program yourself. Imagine what the kids today would say if you told them that if you wanted a program, you had to get one of those computer magazines or books that had 200 pages of code that you had to hand type in. :)
 
I wish it was just that. What happens is that users are supposed to ignore the inner working of their machines and use them exactly as their makers want them to be used and nothing more. Curiosity is now almost a crime, ask the wrong question and you're a hacker/pirate/terrorist.

Yes, that is also certainly true. Not just electronics, but your car, too, in the form of legislation to keep people from disabling "safety" features. And remember the days when buying your kid a chemistry set wasn't considered strange? Yesterday's Homer Hickam is today's latest addition to the terrorist watch list.
 
Early Co-Cos used MSDOS, later models first loaded the MSDOS to RAM,

Not possible. MS-DOS was released a year after the Co-Co, and is x86-specific (whereas the Co-Co had a 6809). Some models of the original TRS-80 could run the OS DOS was a clone of, called CP/M, which targeted the 8080/8085/Z80 line (and later the x86), but not the Co-Co.

Generally, the early microcomputers used a BASIC interpreter in ROM as their "OS". The Co-Co used Color BASIC, which was a variant of Microsoft BASIC, so it did use a Microsoft "operating system", but it wasn't DOS.
 
I think I'm going to get out my Apple II+ and program my Hayes 300baud MicroModem to contact Sojourner. How cool would that be?
 
Not possible. MS-DOS was released a year after the Co-Co, and is x86-specific (whereas the Co-Co had a 6809). Some models of the original TRS-80 could run the OS DOS was a clone of, called CP/M, which targeted the 8080/8085/Z80 line (and later the x86), but not the Co-Co.

Generally, the early microcomputers used a BASIC interpreter in ROM as their "OS". The Co-Co used Color BASIC, which was a variant of Microsoft BASIC, so it did use a Microsoft "operating system", but it wasn't DOS.


My bad, it was microsoft BASIC, not DOS, as you pointed out. Slip of the mind, or fingers - I'm just far more used to typing MSDOS than MSBASIC!
 
There's still people writing games and stuff for those old systems, mostly using emulators now. I've actually seen a LOT of new Atari 2600 games that people have coded, and that's a tough thing to do. Coding an Atari game is just ridiculous. I tried to learn to do it myself and gave up because it was so insanely complex. Unlike today's computers where you just program what you want the thing to do within the code, you compile it and it does it, with the Atari 2600, you have to pretty much know the inner workings of a TV set and you're pretty much writing commands to control various TV components. It's hard to describe how it works but you're literally telling the damn TV to adjust a mirror here, shine this color light there... It's like the language is backward and you're working from the hardware side to the software side. I can't even describe it properly. It's like the TV is the basis of the programming and not the computer. Programing an Atari game from scratch is just crazy unless you really know the inner workings of a TV set.
Basic, C, C++, Java are a LOT simpler than Atari2600 language. Even Commodore 64 machine language is easier. I think Atari2600 language is the most complex back-a** language I ever tried to learn. You can clearly tell that home computers were in their infancy at the time it was made and it was NOT designed to be user friendly at all.
 
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AFAIK Atari2600 has no dedicated "video chip" so you're programing CPU to directly interface with TV set (via modulator). C-64 has (quite potent for it's time) video chip called VIC which took a lot of translating on itself. Same with sound.
 
Figuring out the TV isn't difficult. The trouble is having the programming skill to minimize clock cycles to do something and also fit your game in 4KB. From what I can tell, every byte in Pitfall serves a purpose.
However, people are still discovering ways to "cheat" the system. This is still mostly feats of minimum clock cycles though.
 
The 2600 had no video RAM, either: you couldn't work with a X-Y set of coordinates to move objects. Programmers had to work out when to draw a blip on the screen by the timing of the electron beam in the tube. Since RAM was about 128 bytes (yes, bytes, not kilobytes) it's still incredible they managed to fit stuff like "Adventure" and "Pitfall" into it. Remember how much the VCS port of "Pac-Man" flickered?

And yes, back then every byte had to be saved. That didn't stop programmers from including some "Easter Eggs" anyway.

Personally, I cut my teeth on a VIC-20. First thing I got (the Datassette was included, luckily) was a 16KB expansion - which remapped all of the RAM! The 64 (and later the 128) were another world entirely: sprites, an in-built synthetizer chip (SID), lots of RAM (for the time). BASIC 2.0 felt like a limitation at the time, because there were no dedicated graphics and sound commands, you had to POKE everything into memory addresses. In the end, however, the stuff we learned just by making user-defined characters and sprites was cool.

Too bad Commodore couldn't sell water in the Sahara and managed to take a step back with the C16 and Plus-4...
 
There's very good reasons that the most popular games on the old systems came from only a handful of programmers. ;)
 
Much of the VCS limitations were the result of cost. It was the best we could back in the day.

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That was the size of the ram!

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That is the size of a typical game from the early years! In bytes! That's 2k bytes!

In it you had a complete o/s, a/v, i/o, game logic, rules, and the vcs equivalent of bit-mapped graphics, sound waves, and whatever else it took to make a game. There was no such thing as a bios or language or o/s stored on the machine. This was about as close to the bare metal of a machine as you could get. The only things simpler were like the software hard-encoded in digital watches and calculators. Still, many high-end calculators had more complex software anyways.

And you know what? The games were among the funnest in town. This machine has a small group of enthusiasts at atariage.com and you can learn all about it there. And get into discussions with emulator authors and modern-day programmers! Some of whom are from the old school of atari itself.
 
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Remember how much the VCS port of "Pac-Man" flickered?

I have a big book here about the history of the video game industry where there's an interview with the some of the lead programmers at Activision and they say that they laughed when they saw the Atari port of Pac Man. They say that they could have easily done it without the flicker, and with dots instead of bars and a much better looking maze. Activision didn't force crazy deadlines on their games like Atari, which had a new CEO at the time who was a business man and not a game designer, did. The CEO at that time was always dropping REALLY short deadlines on the teams so that later on in Atari's life, the games were actually kind of slapped together and often unfinished. Pac Man was one that this happened to. E.T. was the poster child of that system.
 
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