Question Descartes scenario manipulation and editing issues

[GalileoX]

Hello all, Please forgive me if I have posted in the wrong thread as I am new to posting at Orbiter Forum though I have been reading the forum and exploring Orbiter for Years.

I am trying to arrange a scenario where I use Burch's Big Space Plane, BSP4 Scenario Generator, Space Station Building Blocks 4.0 & 4.1 and Descartes. The plan is to carry up SSBB modules in the BSP, dock with a Descartes ship, attach the SSBB modules to the ship and take them to Jupiter to build a station orbiting Europa.

I want a David Hume style ship orbiting Earth and for it to have empty racks attached and the keel nodes empty. I can use the attachment system in it's implementation when running Orbiter. That is, I know how to operate it, learned when first exploring SSBB, but I'm not adept at all (yet) in understanding the attachment system as far as the code in the .scn files. I don't know the code or where the lines should be placed in the files so I do a lot of cut and past learned by comparing .scn files and trial and error, making slight edits like changing status from orbiting Mars to orbiting Earth.

I cut the David Hume ship(and the attached vessels) from one of it's scenarios, one without the Control Module because I do not want to deal with the greater complexity of the CM in the scenario at this stage. I created a new scenario file where all of the elements copied from the original .scn file had the status changed to Orbiting Earth. I am trying to learn how to remove the currently installed cargo modules from the scenario. I tried to unattach them from the racks and then delete them but Orbiter crashes to desktop before I get to delete them after unattachment. The CTD occurs abut 20 seconds or so after unattachment. It crashes immediately if I delete them without unattacment. It should also be mentioned that both the original David Hume scenario and my cut and paste / Earth Orbit Edited scenario both have CTDs about three or four minutes into the scenario even if left untouched short of camera position changes.

In summary;

How can I build a scenario with the David Hume in Earth orbit and with empty racks attached and empty keel nodes?

Are the SSBB modules to scale with the Descartes scenarios and is their any reason they can't be attached to the racks or ship?

Why do I have the CTD issues after unattachment or within a few minutes of initiating the simulation? Is it particular to the addon running in 2010p1?

Thanks in advance for your help.

Hail probe.

**** Orbiter.log
Build Aug 30 2010 [v.100830]
Timer precision: 6.999e-008 sec
Found 1 joystick(s)
Devices enumerated: 9
Devices accepted: 7
==> RGB Emulation
==> Direct3D HAL
==> Direct3D T&L HAL
==> Direct3D HAL (ATI Radeon 3100 Graphics )
==> Direct3D T&L HAL (ATI Radeon 3100 Graphics )
==> Direct3D HAL (ATI Radeon 3100 Graphics ) #2
==> Direct3D T&L HAL (ATI Radeon 3100 Graphics ) #2
Module AtlantisConfig.dll .... [Build 100830, API 100830]
Module AtmConfig.dll ......... [Build 100830, API 100830]
Module DGConfigurator.dll .... [Build 100830, API 100830]

**** Creating simulation session
DirectDraw interface OK
Direct3D interface OK
Graphics: Viewport: Fullscreen 1024 x 768 x 32
Graphics: Hardware T&L capability: Yes
Graphics: Z-buffer depth: 32 bit
Graphics: Active lights supported: 8
Loading 15382 records from star database
Joystick throttle: SLIDER 0
Joystick throttle control detected
Module Sun.dll ............... [Build 100830, API 100830]
VSOP87(E) Sun: Precision 1e-006, Terms 554/6634
Module Mercury.dll ........... [Build 100830, API 100830]
VSOP87(B) Mercury: Precision 1e-005, Terms 167/7123
Module Venus.dll ............. [Build 100830, API 100830]
Module VenusAtm2006.dll ...... [Build 100830, API 100830]
VSOP87(B) Venus: Precision 1e-005, Terms 79/1710
Module Earth.dll ............. [Build 100830, API 100830]
Module EarthAtmJ71G.dll ...... [Build 100830, API 100830]
VSOP87(B) Earth: Precision 1e-008, Terms 2564/2564
Module Moon.dll .............. [Build 100830, API 100830]
ELP82: Precision 1e-005, Terms 116/829
Module Mars.dll .............. [Build 100830, API 100830]
Module MarsAtm2006.dll ....... [Build 100830, API 100830]
VSOP87(B) Mars: Precision 1e-005, Terms 405/6400
Module Phobos.dll ............ [Build ******, API 060425]
Module Deimos.dll ............ [Build ******, API 060425]
Module Galsat.dll ............ [Build 100217, API 100215]
Module Jupiter.dll ........... [Build 100830, API 100830]
VSOP87(B) Jupiter: Precision 1e-006, Terms 1624/3625
Module Io.dll ................ [Build 100217, API 100215]
Module Europa.dll ............ [Build 100217, API 100215]
Module Ganymede.dll .......... [Build 100217, API 100215]
Module Callisto.dll .......... [Build 100217, API 100215]
Module Satsat.dll ............ [Build 100215, API 100212]
Module Saturn.dll ............ [Build 100830, API 100830]
VSOP87(B) Saturn: Precision 1e-006, Terms 2904/6365
Module Mimas.dll ............. [Build 100215, API 100212]
SATSAT Mimas: Terms 113
Module Enceladus.dll ......... [Build 100215, API 100212]
SATSAT Enceladus: Terms 33
Module Tethys.dll ............ [Build 100215, API 100212]
SATSAT Tethys: Terms 101
Module Dione.dll ............. [Build 100215, API 100212]
SATSAT Dione: Terms 59
Module Rhea.dll .............. [Build 100215, API 100212]
SATSAT Rhea: Terms 68
Module Titan.dll ............. [Build 100215, API 100212]
SATSAT Titan: Terms 100
Module Iapetus.dll ........... [Build 100215, API 100212]
SATSAT Iapetus: Terms 605
Module Uranus.dll ............ [Build 100830, API 100830]
VSOP87(B) Uranus: Precision 1e-006, Terms 1827/5269
Module Miranda.dll ........... [Build ******, API 060425]
Module Ariel.dll ............. [Build ******, API 060425]
Module Umbriel.dll ........... [Build ******, API 060425]
Module Titania.dll ........... [Build ******, API 060425]
Module Oberon.dll ............ [Build ******, API 060425]
Module Neptune.dll ........... [Build 100830, API 100830]
VSOP87(B) Neptune: Precision 1e-006, Terms 391/2024
Finished initialising world
Module XR2Ravenstar.dll ...... [Build 100830, API 100830]
Module ShuttleA.dll .......... [Build 100830, API 100830]
Module ShuttlePB.dll ......... [Build 100830, API 100830]
Module DeltaGlider.dll ....... [Build 100830, API 100830]
Module LuaInline.dll ......... [Build 100830, API 100830]
Finished initialising status
Finished initialising camera
Finished initialising panels
Finished setting up render state
ERROR: DDraw object is still referenced: 4
---------------------------------------------------------------
>>> ERROR: Destroy framework objects failed
>>> [OrbiterGraphics::Exit3DEnvironment | .\OGraphics.cpp | 1034]
---------------------------------------------------------------
**** Closing simulation session

---------- Post added at 02:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:00 PM ----------

It should also be mentioned that I have Vinka's Spacecraft3 and associated patches installed as well as Burch's Local Transportation System.

 

[Mandella]

Oboy. You are in for an adventure.



I've done what you're setting out to do, but be advised that the Greg Burch Future History series is not for the faint of heart. It spans three versions of Orbiter, not counting patches, and each release assumes you're building on the releases before and thus have everything else already installed.

But first things first -- let's get rid of the crash problem three minutes in.
Burch made the interesting design choice of having a docking port and an attachment point coincide in the Descartes line. His method to keep the two points from "fighting" was to include the DSVDA1 ring adapter (it's that odd red ring you will often see floating free during scenarios with Descartes type ships). This was always something of a kludgy solution, and in Orbiter 2010 seems to lead to CTDs (things docked to attached things behave poorly even in 2006).

My solution was to redesign the ship, removing the DSVDA1 and docking port and just attaching the DSUM straight to the main body. It gets rid of the crashing problem, but be advised that it changes the dynamics of the ship. It becomes impossible to control using only the built in autopilot, and there is the realism issue that attached parts are not counted in total mass of the ship.

Still, it doesn't crash after three minutes.

More bad news: The Descartes line is not sized properly with SSBB 4.1 (but it might fit earlier SSBBs). In fact, the Descartes was the break point for the size issue. Everything after conforms to "Orbiter Standard," everything before is about twice the proper size.

AR81 made a handy [ame="http://www.orbithangar.com/searchid.php?ID=2875"]utility[/ame] to auto rescale Burch's vessels. I used .6 as the resize factor and that seems to fit pretty well.

As I alluded to in the opening, I've got what you're trying to do up and running right now, including trading cargo between Descartes and Gilgamesh type vessels, along with the Big Spaceplanes, so I know it can be done. It was a lot of work and I'm still tinkering with it. I'm tempted to offer the "fixed" ships as an Orbit Hanger download, but I'm concerned about the correctness of doing that. I've not been in communication with Burch about these mods, and am uncomfortable with posting "corrections" of other people's work.

But if you wish, I could email you the scenario files I am using, along with the resized vessels, and see if that will work for you.

 

[GalileoX]

Thanks for your input. I knew there was a sizing issue somewhere. I also understood that many of Burch's addons required specified and unspecified previous addons. It's a shame the world he created in his addons are not more integrated. I have the LST, BSP and SSBB 4.0 & 4.1. Is there anything else I need?

I have seen Burch on the forums so I am sure he wouldn't mind if you asked him about your resizing efforts. He may even be appreciative.

I can't think of any better ship to transport a space station to Jupiter. Can you?

I would love to take a look at your scenarios. My email is [email protected]:tiphat:

Again, Thanks for your help.

 

[Mandella]

I can't think of any better ship to transport a space station to Jupiter. Can you?

I really can't. Burch has a vision of pure space vessels that is incomparable in the Orbiter community, as many excellent coders/modelers as we have.

I just zipped down my entire "Greg Burch Post 2006 Rescaled" folder, only to find that it still comes to 60.5 Megs. While that isn't much by today's standards, I'm on limited bandwidth here at the house. I'll gmail it to you tomorrow evening when I run in to work.

I *was* going to cherry pick out just the Hume scenarios and modded ships, but then that would just bring back the whole undocumented dependency thing. I know this folder runs perfectly as zipped on my machine, so here's hoping that it will fix up your problems as well.

 

[NukeET]

GalileoX,

This topic (or a similar derivation thereof) appears on this forum from time to time, and previously on the M6 forum.

Links to older threads:

M6 (I had problems getting this link to work)
http://www.orbitersim.com/Forum/defa...=posts&t=13473

Orbiter-Forum

GregBurch's Descartes Class DSV not working

http://www.orbiter-forum.com/showthread.php?t=3634&highlight=Descartes

Attachment vs Docking:

http://www.orbiter-forum.com/showthread.php?t=819&highlight=Descartes

Hope this helps.

 

[GalileoX]

Thanks for everyone's help.

 

[Mandella]

GalileoX, you've got mail!

Let me know when you've downloaded the file. It turned out to be too large to mail, so I sent you a link to where I've got it temporarily posted.

 

[GalileoX]

Thanks Mandella, I'll get it ASAP. :thumbup: