Does the New Horizons probe carry a message?

[agentgonzo]

Stuff on New Horizons (including part of Clyde Tombaugh's remains)
http://www.universetoday.com/20155/stowaways-revealed-on-new-horizons-spacecraft/

 

[Notebook]

Amazing, Im surprised they had room for the equipment! Nice touch though.

N.

 

[agentgonzo]

Juno has tiny lego men on board: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/08/04/legonauts/

 

[T.Neo]

It's pretty sad though, we could put a few cd's or other storage devices with a helluva lot of information on those and instead we put some dumb stamps or ashes or parts of airplanes?? Good god!!!

When will people realise that these probes won't get anywhere near stars and are heavily unlikely to actually be discovered by anyone?

We could have put huge amounts of information on New Horizons, but it's unlikely that it would ever come into contact with anyone or anything able to read that information and comprehend it. Ergo the only reason for sticking stuff on these probes is sentimental- and that applies to the Pioneer plaques and Voyager records as well.

Things that I think could have a value, are time-capsules sent to places like Mars. There they actually have a chance of being found, and they actually make good time capsules, since by the time anyone ever gets to searching for them (if they ever do), hundreds of years would have likely passed since their launch.

 

[agentgonzo]

IMO the voyager and pioneer records and the items sent on NH are more an exercise in romanticism and human introspection than actually expecting some extra-terrestrial lifeform to ever find them, let-alone decipher them.

 

[T.Neo]

Finding them is probably a whole lot less likely than deciphering them, at least partially.

The argument of some sort of alien psychology can be made... and while a psychology could be quite alien, psychology, like biology, is driven by evolutionary law, and therefore has to be similar to our own in some respects, in a similar way to how a sapient organism that has evolved elsewhere would have a very different appearance to our own, but would still have certain key biological traits- such as legs or eyes.

Deciphering the Pioneer plaque isn't that difficult, even I can do it:

- Perhaps the most striking feature is a star-burst pattern of several lines eminating from a central point, most of the lines deliniated with a series of perpendicular dashes. The meaning of this is not immediately clear.

- Two figures are apparent, and are composed of a series of curving, intricately related lines, reminiscent of the features of a biological construct. Thus these figures could be taken to be a portrayal of a biological construct of some importance, perhaps a depiction of the builders of the spacecraft. The two figures with a general similarity yet some differences indicate some sort of dimorphism in these organisms, though it is not clear if the general shape of their outline is a rest state or some sort of pose, or if this positioning is intrinsic to the particular dimorphisms depicted.

- The figures are superimposed on another figure, which roughly resembles the spacecraft itself. This might be an indication of the general size of the organisms in relation to the spacecraft.

- At the lower portion of the plaque is a series of circles of varying sizes, associated with formations of dashes similar to those in the star-burst pattern above. A line connects a small figure of the spacecraft to one of the circles. The most common spherical objects in the universe are stars and planets, and the circle is the 2-dimensional projection of the outline of a sphere. One possible explanation is that these circles are representations of planets, and the spacecraft has a special association with one of these planets.

- At the top of the image is a set of two circles associated with several lines, dashes, and dots. The meaning of this is not immediately clear.


Ok, so that analysis did come from my human psychology. But it's exactly the same sort of analysis I'd do if I saw an alien version of the Pioneer plaque.

The thing is, you get to a point with the whole "alien psychology" argument where you just start to ask which alternate universe these hypothetical aliens are from... :shifty:

A lot of the images in the Voyager record are easier to understand- visually. The problem could be figuring out how to play the thing. But there are still cases of the identity of things and their relationships with other things that could be pretty confusing. You can't really explain it all (or just most of it) without a team of experts and years-long discussions. That said, the Voyager record would hypothetically be the subject of decades of research.

Trying to figure out stuff that you don't know about, isn't impossible. People do it all the time, in archeology for example. And generally, all paleontologists have to figure out the soft tissues, attributes and behaviours of extinct animals, are fossilised bones.

This is just a different version of that. And when you get into all the supposed difficulties of communication with aliens, it shows that we can think of such things, and thus potentially mitigate difficulties. And if we can, why can't a hypothetical sapient alien? Must we universally assume that aliens are morons?

I'd love to see the contents of an alien version of the Voyager record.

 

[Codz]

A testament, out in the cold, dark abyss of space, where nobody will appreciate them?

Yeah... :shifty:

It is SENTIMENTAL! It's meant as a symbol, a testament, and a monument to humanity. It doesn't matter whether they are found. It is supposed to be a symbol of the human need for exploration.

 

[T.Neo]

It is SENTIMENTAL! It's meant as a symbol, a testament, and a monument to humanity. It doesn't matter whether they are found. It is supposed to be a symbol of the human need for exploration.

In the dark, cold abyss of space?

Considering the history of these spacecraft as the legacy of our 'grand tour' of the solar system, I'd definitely appreciate their recovery and placement in some sort of exhibit or display, where their impact on science could have an physical and tangible impact on people, rather than the wishy-washy sentimentality of leaving something out in the empty abyss of space.

 

[Codz]

In the dark, cold abyss of space?

Considering the history of these spacecraft as the legacy of our 'grand tour' of the solar system, I'd definitely appreciate their recovery and placement in some sort of exhibit or display, where their impact on science could have an physical and tangible impact on people, rather than the wishy-washy sentimentality of leaving something out in the empty abyss of space.

They will probably long outlive human civilization. Especially in the path we are going space wise.

 

[T.Neo]

They will probably long outlive human civilization. Especially in the path we are going space wise.

Yeah! Because If We Don't Move Into Space, We Will Destroy Ourselves Soon!

:facepalm:

Outliving human civilisation is one thing. Floating through the dark, cold abyss of space is another. There it is a testament that nobody will see, nobody will hear, and nobody will find.

And that's the facts. You can't send something to the middle of nowhere and expect it to be found by someone...

 

[TSPenguin]

You can't send something to the middle of nowhere and expect it to be found by someone...

I completely agree that the chances of it ever being found are extremely close to zero. Yet how sad it would be if it were found and there was no message.

 

[Codz]

Yeah! Because If We Don't Move Into Space, We Will Destroy Ourselves Soon!

:facepalm:

Outliving human civilisation is one thing. Floating through the dark, cold abyss of space is another. There it is a testament that nobody will see, nobody will hear, and nobody will find.

And that's the facts. You can't send something to the middle of nowhere and expect it to be found by someone...

Would it be better if we left absolutely nothing behind?

 

[T.Neo]

I completely agree that the chances of it ever being found are extremely close to zero. Yet how sad it would be if it were found and there was no message.

Maybe, considering that it'd have to be such a strikingly unlikely chain of events that would lead to such an improbable occurance.

Wouldn't you be surprised and thrilled if you found a space probe in interstellar space? Maybe then you would wonder of its origin, but that would not detract from the implausibility... er... significance of the discovery.

The thing is, it's so horrnedously unlikely, that it just isn't a justifiable way to contact aliens, or even to place a time capsule on something.

If you want to say the Voyager record or Pioneer plaque is so important to provide information to a potential discoverer, that we must hail it as such a great idea, then I will say that you should wear a kevlar pie-pan on your head at all times, to guard against falling space debris.

The likelihood of space debris falling on your head, or my head, is probably far more likely than an extraterrestrial discovering one of the Voyager or Pioneer probes.

Would it be better if we left absolutely nothing behind?

It doesn't matter if what we leave behind isn't seen by anyone, does it? If that is the case, then it is pretty much as bad as our civilisation not having left anything at all- not left anything to teach, not anything to display, not anything to show. A message is worthless without an audience.

 

[lennartsmit]

So, does anyone know what New Horizons is carrying?

In addition to the scientific equipment, there are several cultural artifacts traveling with the spacecraft. These include a collection of 434,738 names stored on a compact disc, a piece of Scaled Composites SpaceShipOne, and an American flag, along with other mementos. One of the trim weights on the spacecraft is a Florida state quarter. To commemorate the discovery of Pluto, one ounce of the ashes of Pluto discoverer Clyde Tombaugh are aboard the spacecraft, while one of the science packages (a dust counter) is named after Venetia Burney, who named Pluto as a child.

Quoted from Wikipedia. There doesn't seem to be a plaque like the Voyager probes.

 

[Codz]

A message is worthless without an audience.

Lucky for us that NASA doesn't care about your opinion.:thumbup:

 

[T.Neo]

Lucky for us that NASA doesn't care about your opinion. :thumbup:

Er, I'm not championing an opinion here. I'm explaining the reality of things.

Do you really know how the Voyager program- with NASA's science objectives (which is what NASA does care about, by the way), would have been affected if there was no Golden Record?

They wouldn't have been affected at all.

Do you really think that the Golden Record is anywhere near a serious attempt at sending a message to an entity(s) in space?

Of course it is not. Primarily because it is in the middle of nowhere. Interstellar space is an extremely good definition of "middle of nowhere".

Look, I know the Golden Record and the Pioneer Plaques make people feel warm and fuzzy inside. They make me feel warm and fuzzy inside, too. The fact that they're out there on those probes is for sentimental reasons alone; you could almost call it a publicity stunt.

Nobody shouts about LEGO minifigures on the Juno probe being the pinnacle of human achievement.

Luckily for us? Luckily for who? Do you think it would make a difference to anyone's life- present or future- that there was a Golden Record?

Not outside of a small sentimentality.

The cold, hard fact is that the Pioneer plaques and the Voyager records are going to sail into a deep, dark nothingness that difficult to grasp in its entirety in the first place.

Barring incredibly unlikely events, nobody will ever rendezvous with those probes. And it is extremely, increduously unlikely, for an alien space traveller to chance on such a probe. It is so unlikely to be utterly absurd.

Don't come at me with the "Fortunately NASA is uber-smart and doesn't care what you think" argument, just because I am trying to point out that you're viewing a sentimental achievement as a technological or scientific one, when it is not.

It is exceedingly likely that nobody out there will find the Voyager records. It is almost certain. Their value as a time capsule or communication is therefore negligible or even entirely nonexistant.

 

[Pyromaniac605]

The messages etc. are truly there for sentimental value only, it doesn't matter if they are never recovered, those messages are there to remind us of what we have achieved, not for some alien to find and learn about our civilization, if we had not left messages then their trips would seem to be purely for scientific gain and not at all to show our technological advancement, that is why the messages are there.

 

[Izack]

I think if we somehow managed to completely destroy ourselves and everything we have ever made or influenced (can anyone say EPIC FAIL?!?!) near Sol, there would be no point in having a monument to nothing, unless our galactic neighbours are huge fans of antithesis.

Anyway, failing that, the best monument we have is ourselves. Can't we all just have a little optimism that maybe we aren't all going to die suddenly? >.>

 

[Codz]

Er, I'm not championing an opinion here. I'm explaining the reality of things.

Do you really know how the Voyager program- with NASA's science objectives (which is what NASA does care about, by the way), would have been affected if there was no Golden Record?

.

I completely agree with Pyromaniac. I believe they should remain, found or not, as monuments to humanity.

 

[T.Neo]

Why? Monuments to who? Have you ever seen a monument at the bottom of the seafloor? In the middle of the Sahara?

No. Monuments are in places for people to see them and be immediately affected by them!

Also, why do you think we put our historical air and spacecraft into museums, instead of scrapping them? So people can get up close to them, so people can see them with their own eyes... so children can be inspired by them.

Also, you are totally forgetting what the real value of the Voyager missions was, and that was indeed the scientific return. And that is arguably also the most poignant sentimental factor, not the idea of a dead spacecraft floating aimlessly through an unimaginable abyss:

The Voyager program took us on our Grand Tour of the planets. That is its importance. Its importance is not as a dead hunk of metal carrying a message into the middle of nowhere.

That is no monument to humanity. It is a monument to an escape trajectory and a decayed RTG.

Anyway, failing that, the best monument we have is ourselves. Can't we all just have a little optimism that maybe we aren't all going to die suddenly? >.>

Indeed. :dry:

But If We Don't Expand Into Space, We Will Destroy Ourselves!!!!!!!!