Extraterrestrial Intelligence

fsci123

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I was watching some of the Universe on History and earlier today i was talking to my teacher about human evolution...
SO it inspired me to post this discuss the conditions nessesary and the conditions ETI might provide...
 
water is the main condition, people say silicon based life is possible, and Stephen Hawking said that aliens might kill us all. All you need to know in a nutshell.
 
water is the main condition, people say silicon based life is possible, and Stephen Hawking said that aliens might kill us all. All you need to know in a nutshell.

People have also theorized theorized about methane based life as well as a host of other elements. These types of life forms might not need water to survive therefore places like Titan could possibly be habitable. As for aliens contacting and/or killing us just ask yourself this question: have we managed to contact aliens yet? Numerous conspiracy theories notwithstanding, the answer is no. The simple fact is that interstellar travel and even communication is very difficult and only possible for civilizations considerably more advanced than ours. Here's how I reason this out:
1) The number of planetary systems in this galaxy is, although large, not insurmountably so.
2) The number of habitable planets in this galaxy is only a fraction of that.
3) The number of planets with life on them is even less than that because the fact that a planet has the right conditions to support a certain type of life doesn't mean that life will necessarily evolve. (Earth doesn't have any silicon based life and although Titan could potentially have methane based life it's definitely not for sure.)
4) Even if a planet does have life the chances are that that life will not be sentient. (On Earth we have millions of species of animals only one (or maybe two or three) of which is sentient.
5) Finally, the level of civilization it would take to contact and/or visit another planetary system is potentially the most limiting factor of all. The fact is there just aren't very many alien civilizations that are going to be able to do that and therefore probability dictates that there are even less of them anywhere near Earth. Distance is also a limiting factor because no matter how advanced a civilization may be, you can't travel faster than the speed of light. (Okay, so there might be wormholes and stuff but again the level of advancement necessary to do such things precludes there being a lot of those types of civilizations out there.) In conclusion I think the odds of finding any sort of intelligent life are pretty much infintessimal.
 
2) The number of habitable planets in this galaxy is only a fraction of that.
I strongly disagree with this statement, as far as I am concerned the term 'Habitable planet' can only be used to describe a planet habitable by a certain being. For all we know there could be life that lives off of Hydrogen, Helium, or any other gas you can think of, just because life on Earth is specific in that most of it lives off Oxygen doesn't mean that every lifeform in the universe does.

And until anyone can give me proof that Oxygen is the only gas that lifeforms can live off I will continue to dispute this 'Habitable planet' nonsense.
 
I think it's very egotistical to assume that life needs water, or oxygen. It's also egotistical to think that "sentient" has any real meaning in this discussion - there are likely many kinds of sentience that we simply wouldn't recognize as being sentient - we define sentience according to our own human perception of sentience.

There are also galaxies and solar systems far, far older than ours, so a highly advanced spacefaring race isn't unlikely.

That said, it's very unlikely that any sentient life would have visited Earth. While we make a lot of noise (radio waves), it's a darn big universe. Electromagnetic waves do get weaker with distance, and don't travel faster than light. Also, we've only been making that noise for just over a century. Any aliens would need to have come well within a couple hundred lightyears of Earth to notice us. On a universal scale, a couple hundred years is a very short time, and a couple hundred lightyears is a very short distance. Even if there are hundreds of advanced alien races, the odds of them noticing us are very slight.

There's also another issue. Why would any advanced, intelligent life bother to visit humans? Isn't it egotistical to assume we would be of any major interest to them?
 
There's also another issue. Why would any advanced, intelligent life bother to visit humans? Isn't it egotistical to assume we would be of any major interest to them?
I don't believe so, we are interested in life simpler than our own aren't we?
 
Water is hardly a requirement. Consider that the Internet is a life-form already. It is silicon and petroleum based, more or less depending on what parts you look at.

It is self replicating too; We humans are the walking reproductive organs for its nodes.

And, the Internet is a life-form whose awareness is so different from our own that we cannot not even recognize it as such.

It is also aware of what makes us tick and what makes us make more of its nodes, and it does it with incredible speed and insidiousness.
 
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I think it's very egotistical to assume that life needs water, or oxygen. It's also egotistical to think that "sentient" has any real meaning in this discussion - there are likely many kinds of sentience that we simply wouldn't recognize as being sentient - we define sentience according to our own human perception of sentience.

yes this can be absolutry true, but if we dont know what sort of ife can exist, how can weeven begin to think about life outside our planet.
Our planet is a reference to our search for ET, because we are 100% sure life can exist with these condition, we are a living example of that, so we can only search for ET where we already know the limiting factors needed for life.
Or you can say that everything that changes with time is life in its own way.
like how keeah said about the internet.
 
I don't believe so, we are interested in life simpler than our own aren't we?

Sure, but we don't embark on trips that take decades, even centuries, each way just to see one microbe when we can find other microbes quite similar that are closer. Also, just because we do it, doesn't mean another race will share our curiosity. The desire to catalog EVERY form of life may well be exclusive to humans. You CAN NOT assume that what we do will define another species' activities - that's the "Human Conceit" I was referring to when I said "egotistical".
 
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...and even if we WERE being studied by some intelligent species, they'd probably be so far beyond us in technological abilities that chances are, we wouldn't even know we were being studied. Does an ant know when a scientist is examining it ? Even when handled, it has no concept of what's going on.
The recent findings in California of an arsenic based bacterium is causing us to re-define what we feel is "needed" for life.
I personally think that the galaxy is full of life of all shapes and sizes. Has it visited us ? I remain VERY skeptical. Also, according to life on Earth, Intelligence as we know it doesn't seem to be a main thrust of evolution. Otherwise, we'd have a LOT more intelligent beings on this planet to talk to, but in several million years, WE are the only species on this planet that has achieved this level of intelligence. I'm willing to bet that intelligence such as our own developing is probably going to be a one in a billion billion billion chance.
 
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I recommend having a read of the Centauri Dreams blog. It has several articles about why SETI might be a failure, how our radio leakage, even back in the 1960's couldn't be detected without some very serious infrastructure and how SETI might be giving way to SETA of which there is some interesting circumstantial evidence.
 
Here's a scenario for a game within a game. I've tried this out with a few people who I consider to be very intelligent. The results were rather surprising.

Scenario:-A couple of geniuses and their friends have built an ftl probe, moreover they have placed one end of a wormhole onto the probe. They launch it, secretly, and first try, they find an earth like planet. A pretechnological planet roughly akin to the world of Ancient Greek city states.

Somewhat at a loss as to what to do next, they hit upon the idea of creating a message-board, to discuss this "hypothetical" contact problem. They have sub forums for the likes of astrophysics, geology, philosophy and religion.

People join and play the game. After a short while strangely bald statements come from the site moderators. The spectrum of the star is such and such, the wormhole can only transport a precise mass. Little slips by people who have forgotten for a moment, that this is supposed to be hypothetical.

The people who have commented on this game, come from different disciplines. First surprise was that there was a very quick unanimity about the need to get control of this site, and make the whole affair one of Above Top Secret. Everyone grasped immediately that in this case we would be ET. It was also grasped, that what we could now do, had probably been done many times before.

There was no absurd Star Trek "prime directive," for to do nothing, is to ethically do something. Everybody interfered with this planet and they started before our world had been informed.
 
One thing people tend to forget about "alternate biochemistries" is that while they might be possible, they tend to be quite chemically limiting. For example, water surpasses methane as a solvent, and its liquid range is at a far higher temperature, allowing faster/higher chemical interaction. Methane is also liquid over a short temperature range, which makes an ecological reliance on it pretty tricky.

Silicon also has problems. For example, it is not as chemically active as carbon, is less abundant, and its oxide (silicon dioxide, or sand) is not soluble in water.

It is for reasons like these, among others, that make it improbable for 'alternate' life to evolve into complex, advanced organisms that might build spacecraft, for example. It is not narrow-mindedness, rather, they are at a simple and clear chemical disadvantage to life similar to us. I'm not excluding anything that is not carbon-and-water-based, but rather excluding most, if not all, of the currently proposed biochemistry concepts.

Life existing on any of the noble gases is, dare I say it, impossible. These are gases that are inert, they will not even interact with the environment or form any sort of biologically useful chemicals, let alone be metabolically advantageous.

It is also not egotistical to suggest that life chemically similar to our own will predominate. Hydrogen is the most common element in the universe. In our own galaxy, it is followed- after inert Helium, by oxygen (third most common element). Carbon is the fourth most common element. Nitrogen is the seventh.

All the components of CHON are in the top ten most abundant elements, and all but one of the components of CHONPS are in the top ten- sulfur makes an apperance as #10, but phosphorous is nowhere to be seen (though presumably is not that far down the line). This is not critical as phosphorous is not required that much by living things, and even then, alternatives like arsenic are probably far less common (phosphorous makes up some 1000 ppm of the Earth's crust, arsenic is only 1.5-2.5 ppm).

That doesn't mean that extraterrestrial life could not be chemically novel- they could be made out of the same (or similar) chemical "building blocks", but arrange them in totally different ways. The side effect is that alien sirloin steaks could be fulling without having any calories (alternate chirality of the molecules), or could even kill you, act as an illicit drug, or be medicinally important (have natively common but otherwise unknown biochemicals with unforseen effects).

Stephen Hawking said that aliens might kill us all.

Stephen Hawking is a theoretical physicist and a cosmologist. He is not a historian, an anthropologist, a sociologist, or even a biologist...

His statement that they might try to kill us all is valid, but whether they would or not is up to debate, can't really be answered by anyone with current data, and should not elicit scaremongering...

It's also egotistical to think that "sentient" has any real meaning in this discussion - there are likely many kinds of sentience that we simply wouldn't recognize as being sentient - we define sentience according to our own human perception of sentience.

The proper description for "intelligent" life is sapient, not sentient. The word sapience is derived from the Latin sapientia, meaning wisdom. Related is the verb sapere, which means- among other things- "to be wise and to know".

Sentience is ability to feel or percieve. Most metazoans have that ability to a degree, so it is nothing special. In my own (shameless plug here...) words, "sentience is awareness. Sapience is awareness of being aware."

I would not go as far as to regard a bacterium, a protist, or even a tree as sentient, even though they react and adapt to stimuli. I would not regard an ostrich or an octopus, or an antelope, as sapient, even though they display varying degrees of intelligence.

The appearance of "behavioural modernity" in H. Sapiens some 50 000 years ago shows that there is something special that we have, that no other known organism has. Sapience is not a fuzzy line, but a trait that can be clearly defined.

It's not necessarily a trait that is unique to us, and it does not make us gods of the cosmos. But we are an example of the trait- and so far, the only known example.

Water is hardly a requirement. Consider that the Internet is a life-form already. It is silicon and petroleum based, more or less depending on what parts you look at.

The internet is no organism, it is a computer network. A vast, dynamic and in some respects life-like network, but still a nonliving information network. Individual pieces of software- such as some viruses- better fit the definition of life, but are not organisms themselves.

Nevertheless, a computer network or a malicious software program is something that is extremely unlikely to form naturally, with our current scientific understanding...

There is actually a scientific definition of life... it basically boils down to having heritable reproduction, meaningful metabolism, and a defined structure... Of all the three I can't even see one the internet fits partially.

Even if there are hundreds of advanced alien races, the odds of them noticing us are very slight.

I am doubtful. If they are interested in carefully catalouging star systems, then it's entirely plausible that they would have detected Earth, but they might not know explicitly that humans exist on the surface.

If Kepler (hypothetically) found a habitable planet some 100 light-years away, the scientific community wouldn't have a clue if the most advanced organisms on the surface were more like Haikouicthys or Homo erectus...

Of course, an advanced alien civilisation would have telescopes and such equipment that would be far more advanced than our own, but as you said- it depends on how interested they are. I think they will be interested, to a degree- and some more interested than others.

...and even if we WERE being studied by some intelligent species, they'd probably be so far beyond us in technological abilities that chances are, we wouldn't even know we were being studied. Does an ant know when a scientist is examining it ? Even when handled, it has no concept of what's going on.

That argument is broken down by the mere fact that we can speculate about being studied by an advanced alien species, and that we can compare ourselves as subjects for scientific study, to ants.

Humans cannot be directly equated to ants, because of very fundamental traits... just like how an ant being studied is already vastly different to a bacterium being studied.

I recommend having a read of the Centauri Dreams blog. It has several articles about why SETI might be a failure, how our radio leakage, even back in the 1960's couldn't be detected without some very serious infrastructure and how SETI might be giving way to SETA of which there is some interesting circumstantial evidence.

The circumstantial evidence is what? 1991 VG? :P

I find the search for artifacts within our solar system alone to be quite limiting- the probability of an alien civilisation sending some sort of artifact to our solar system is probably very low- maybe speculation in this regard should offer the possibility of a SETA equation, similar to the Drake Equation.

If an interstellar probe is considerably more costly than blaring a radio/laser signal at someone (which it probably is), and very few civilisations want to blare radio signals at potentially inhabited planets (or so it seems, from our observations), then the number of civilisations that are sending out interstellar artifacts/have sent out interstellar artifacts is slim at best.

Of course that does not mean we cannot try to detect extrasolar advanced civilisations... an advanced civilisation should be relatively easy to detect from their energy emissions and energy collection structures.
 
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If you take a good year in chemistry most of will begin to understand that water is the most abundant molecule with strong hydrogen bonds...
Carbon the smallest atom that can form a vast number of Stable compounds... And oxygen is the most abundant gas that all metals like to hookup with...
Plus people shouldn't view et's as one civialization but more as a collection of powers... Conflicting radio signals on ours and their planet will probably seem like backround noise from afar...
 
Plus people shouldn't view et's as one civialization but more as a collection of powers...

If they were really advanced and smart (of course, not the same thing) I think they would merge into a single nation/superpower.

Conflicting radio signals on ours and their planet will probably seem like backround noise from afar...

They can't conflict; they are light-years away...
 
People will always have opinions and that's what drives nations
and just like we have like Chanel 2,5,9,13 gps signals cellphone signals,radar if they have multiple signal sources the different may seem like random backround noise

---------- Post added at 04:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:30 PM ----------

Plus havin one nation controlling the world encourages terrorism. An I'm pretty sure any advanced eti will probably understand the consequences of having one power.
 
Oh, so you mean that we can't listen to signals from other planets because of our own radio noise? Ever thought about going to the Sahara desert? Who beams out from there? Or to the dark side of the Moon?

And how does having one nation encourage terrorism? Also, if they are advanced enough they could live in an almost utopian world, without terrorism.
 
Plus havin one nation controlling the world encourages terrorism. An I'm pretty sure any advanced eti will probably understand the consequences of having one power.
i would go strongly against that, actually a unified world will promote peace(provided the head government cares for the people and vice versa)
A world like ours, fragmented into countries is actually bad, as what could be good for one county could be bad for another, then conflicts can arise between 2 or more nations. with a single nation there can be no conflicts as there is onl 1 body.
 
There conflicting signals seem like backround noise...

---------- Post added at 05:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:04 PM ----------

Think think think think...
A unified world would be hard to control, and people have their own opinions and ideals on what should be done if you have the majority of the world deciding they want to take away your property obviouly you would want to fight it. The purpose of conrties is to represent their people in exchange for order and leadership... A single country that cannot satisfy all it's citizens will encounter some form of resistance...
 
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