Gun Debate Discussion

Is that so hard to see? The autopilot did not save the day when the crew was incapacitated.

But it bought them extra time. The aircraft flew even though both pilots had passed out, giving everyone extra time to do something. The autopilot gave them a chance they wouldn't have had without it. A chance is atleast better than no chance.

See what I mean in this short video:



It does not work completely hands-off.

Once it's set it does. I have yet to hear of a normal gun you can 'set & forget'.

When the Rovers and the Viking-probes landed on Mars they all did so on autopilot. It worked fine. Without autopilot it would have been virtually impossible even for the best trained NASA-guy to land any of them on Mars.

Don't under-estimate the power and usefulness of the autopilot Urwumpe :)
 
When the Rovers and the Viking-probes landed on Mars they all did so on autopilot. It worked fine. Without autopilot it would have been virtually impossible even for the best trained NASA-guy to land any of them on Mars.

After a human engineer told the autopilot via uplink what to do in the next hours. ;)

A cruise missile can also fly for a few hours after you told it where to fly to.

And a rifle projectile can fly for multiple kilometers to its target after you fired it.

In all cases, the responsibility remained at the human who set the parameters. If you give an autopilot poor parameters, it will crash you faster, as if you tell a human pilot poor navigation data, because the autopilot can only do as much reality checking as its programmer permitted it. A human is much better there because a skilled human can detect even things, that have no sensor on the aircraft or vehicle.

And such is the case with guns and their owners: A skilled gun owner, can be your best ally or your worst enemy, depending on his mind set, but you will find competence faster among those who are criminal.

Like a German ship owner said in an interview, about arming civil seamen: A civilian will maybe practice fighting once per week, pirates practice it every day.
 
A skilled gun owner, can be your best ally or your worst enemy, depending on his mind set

So we agree that if gun-prohibition is introduced it will prohibit anyone who wants to become a skilled gun-owner, and are willing to invest the effort in becoming one, from becoming a skilled gun-owner?

In other words; that prohibition would be bad because it would reduce the number of skilled gun-owners.




you will find competence faster among those who are criminal.

Like a German ship owner said in an interview, about arming civil seamen: A civilian will maybe practice fighting once per week, pirates practice it every day.

Even MORE reason NOT to prohibit guns!

Criminals have guns despite prohibition, they're criminals, so if prohibition is introduced the effect will be that the non-criminal skilled gun-owners would be reduced in number to zero while the criminal skilled gun-owners would remain the same in number; effectively giving the criminals a bigger edge over the non-criminals.

Do you really want to turn non-criminal citizens into sitting ducks with no means to defend themselves?
The criminals will thank you, cause they will know that nobody will ever shoot back at them. When civilians CAN own a gun the criminal will never know for sure if they are facing a civilian who is better than them, and all else being equal I'm pretty sure that THAT will make most of the criminals think twice.

Sure, some civilians with guns may still end up losing to the criminal, but atleast some of them will win over the criminal. If you prohibit all civilians from owning a gun the criminals will just laugh at you while they shoot you.

The argument that criminals will not shoot un-armed civilians is bogus, because an un-armed civilian that remains alive after an attack is a potential witness-hazard for the criminal. The criminals aren't going to leave you alive so you can call the police and give them a good description of the criminal after the attack.
 
Criminals have guns despite prohibition, they're criminals, so if prohibition is introduced the effect will be that the non-criminal skilled gun-owners would be reduced in number to zero while the criminal skilled gun-owners would remain the same in number; effectively giving the criminals a bigger edge over the non-criminals.

Counterarguments: People who violate the road traffic rules and parking limits get ahead much faster and always find a place to park their car. Should you then simply remove all regulations so you have a chance?

Does this really sound like balancing the odds? Or more like making it even easier for the bad guys?

A gun, that you can't use properly, is a gun that works against you. If you own a gun against a criminal that is used to use it, but you are not, and you have maybe just knowledge about firing at inanimate targets or targets that don't move in a surprising way, while firing at you, you will be much faster dead, than if you are not armed and relying on calling the real experts.

Because cops have much better training usually for this task, than the typical criminal. Most criminals are criminal for something, Cops train using their weaponry (especially the one inside the skull) even in duty. Cops also never go alone on a criminal - who will be your wingman if somebody steps in your house?

Your wife, that has maybe only as much skill in using a gun as you have, and thus, absolutely none tactical skills that are needed to not become your next best enemy because she is standing at the wrong place to fight the bad guys?

Allowing all citizens to become a tiny bit tainted with criminality and violence does not look like a good solution, especially since one of the biggest achievements of a society is, that you have experts for everything, so everybody can do what he can do best, and not has to do everything himself, even if he is bad in it.
 
Also species dying out because of another species consuming their resources or hunting them is part of evolution. The problem starts when humans start to impose artificial considerations on which animals are worth to be protected and which should be eradicated.

The first thing a wolf pack does when it moves into a new area is hunt and eliminate the coyote and fox population - but it ignores the feline predators such as mountain lions. Selective culling by species is practiced by every predator in the world - not just humans. It IS natural. We aren't doing anything other predators don't, we are just the only species that feels a need to rationalize the action.

We try to tame nature.

Of course we do. We eliminate animals that are dangerous to us, or our livestock. The "industrialized" nature (factory meat farms) rely on an absence of predators even more than "tamed" nature - because the livestock is penned in and has nowhere to run. I have yet to see a fence that can keep wolves out - they will dig under even an electrified chain link fence in a matter of minutes. Not to mention that those fences impede the movement (and thus the survival) of almost every other wild land animal larger than a squirrel.

Hunting for food is ok, but we rarely do it in the western world,

Let me fix that for you. "Hunting for food is ok, but we rarely do it in the urban community where I live. Where I live, hunting is common. Hunter Safety is available as an elective at the High School. Archery is a standard part of "Physical Education" class, right along side running, basketball, swimming, etc. Hunting and fishing are vital to this area, and the community wouldn't survive without them. St. Croix (makes fishing poles - based here in town) employs quite a few people - and is the best place to work in town. There are over a dozen people here who make their living custom winding poles, and these poles are in demand worldwide. Not far away, New Archery Products employs quite a few more people (and also provides steady business for a local plastics firm), and their products are also sold worldwide.

Those hunters I have in my neighborhood would need to be round and fat, considering how much they boast with what they have shot last week. They can't have eaten that all, and even including what they sell to restaurants, it should have been a lot.

Hunting tales are like "Fish Tales". The claims these people make are highly exaggerated. Divide the claims by 4 (both in quantity and size) and you'll be closer to the truth.

I can't speak for Germany, but here in the US selling wild game and fish is extremely restricted for safety reasons. It's also hard to find a restaurant that will sell true "wild" game, for liability reasons. When you see rabbit or venison in a restaurant it is almost always "farm raised".

I don't support "trophy hunting", but that is illegal most places. You are required to "pack out" a certain percentage (varies with state and species) of the animal - or pay exorbitant fines and potentially serve time. Since most trophy hunters use guide services they may not even be aware of this - the guide service handles the dirty work. The meat is professionally processed and tested (and the cost of this is "included" in the guide package right along with lodging, etc.) A few of the "select" cuts may be sold, but the vast majority of the meat is donated to food pantries.

In the US, over 95% of the money spent on conservation either comes from fees paid by hunters, or is donated by hunters. Groups like Whitetails Unlimited and Ducks Unlimited spend several hundreds of thousands of dollars on conservation. Members donate time to perform heavy manual labor improving habitat.

Even if everyone became vegetarians, some form of hunting would be required. Whether performed by "hobby" hunters or paid snipers. I've seen what even a small herd of deer can do to a crop - if you don't keep the population under control you'll never be able to produce enough food to feed everyone.

"Game animals" like deer and rabbits are vital to a forest. They keep the undergrowth down, without which new trees would be choked out and the forest wouldn't replenish itself. Large and healthy forests are VITAL to air quality and oxygenation. While the oceans provide much of the O2, they do very little filtration - only forests do that.

I've heard every argument against hunting that you have made, several times, and always by college educated city dwellers who think they know far more than they do. They read a couple articles, or a chapter of a textbook, and think they know a lot.

I grew up in a National Forest. My father was a forestry supervisor for the Department of Natural Resources, and I spent countless hours watching, talking with, and working with forest and game managers. I have an intimate first hand knowledge of the things you have read a little about. I know why the "wolves" that were re-introduced both here in Wisconsin and in Germany aren't "true" wolves (they are a wolf - dog hybrid).

Ahem... humans have been "infringing" on animal habitat since before we even evolved, and certainly since before we numbered in the some 350 million.

350 million sounds like a lot, but it's a big planet. With a population that small (or better yet smaller) there would still be many large areas with almost no people in them. Sure, we would still be infringing on habitat, but the animals could move to someplace we aren't. At our current population level there simply isn't enough land left undeveloped, and the animals simply have nowhere left to go. The available habitat is already carrying as much wildlife it can support - in many cases more, which is why CWD is becoming an issue among wild deer, where before it was almost exclusive to "farm" deer.

If you own a gun against a criminal that is used to use it, but you are not, and you have maybe just knowledge about firing at inanimate targets or targets that don't move in a surprising way, while firing at you, you will be much faster dead, than if you are not armed and relying on calling the real experts.

Yes, I'm sure that the criminal will be happy to wait for the police to show up and even the odds for you! If not, perhaps they will arrest the person who killed you. That won't make your grave any less cold and dark, but it make everyone else FEEL safer - even though they won't actually BE much safer (chances are he wasn't the only bad guy around). By the time you know you are in danger it's probably too late to call for help. If you are armed, you can at least try to fight back. If you aren't armed, you will be just another statistic.

Your safety is your own personal responsibility - not the government's. A good police force reduces the chances you will be attacked, but it does not eliminate the chance. Having a gun is not the only way to ensure your safety, but it can be a part of a successful strategy (along with good locks on your doors, not flashing wads of cash, avoiding the "wrong" part of town, etc.)
 
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People who violate the road traffic rules and parking limits get ahead much faster and always find a place to park their car. Should you then simply remove all regulations so you have a chance?

Ignoratio elenchi!

Defending yourself from a criminal is NOT a violation.


A gun, that you can't use properly, is a gun that works against you. If you own a gun against a criminal that is used to use it, but you are not, and you have maybe just knowledge about firing at inanimate targets or targets that don't move in a surprising way, while firing at you, you will be much faster dead, than if you are not armed and relying on calling the real experts.

Why would you get killed faster just because you're armed?

I already told you that the criminal can't afford having you stay alive as a witness to the crime. So how will it save you if you're NOT armed?

"19 Year Old Woman Dies After 911 Call Put On Hold & Forgotten":
Granted, this particular video is not about guns (or autopilots ;) ), but about how calling 'the real experts' also isn't the perfect safe-mechanism.
Go even further; try googling "911 call put on hold". You'll get more than 1 story...
911 is not your magic-bullet.



Because cops have much better training usually for this task, than the typical criminal. Most criminals are criminal for something, Cops train using their weaponry (especially the one inside the skull) even in duty. Cops also never go alone on a criminal - who will be your wingman if somebody steps in your house?

Yeah, cops are trained... but may not be available to help you.

- if you call them it may take more time for them to arrive than it takes the attacker to shoot you.

- if the phone is located between the attacker and you you can't even call the cops.

- if you're out on the streets you may not even have a phone to make a call from, or it's battery may be dead.

How will their 'much better training' help you in those situations?




Allowing all citizens to become a tiny bit tainted with criminality and violence does not look like a good solution

Defending yourself from a criminal is NOT a violation.



one of the biggest achievements of a society is, that you have experts for everything, so everybody can do what he can do best, and not has to do everything himself, even if he is bad in it.

In a perfect society that would be true.
The plumber fixes the plumbing, the pilot flies the plane, etc, that's all good in theory.

But it doesn't mean that we are just to be pawns, or cog-wheels if you will, in a big machine without any influence on our own lives.

If the situation allows it; call the cops. If it doesn't; do whatever you can yourself.
Don't you agree with that?

It's not about either-or, but about both-and.
It's not about mutual exclusion, but about mutual inclusion.

Allowing the citizens to own a gun is not the same as saying that's their only option in every situation. It's merely an EXTRA option.

It's like birth-control pills and condoms, 2 things that can both prevent a pregnancy, so why have both? Because they have different qualities and give you an extra protection than if you only rely on 1 of them.

Choices (even bad ones) = freedom.
No choices (even good ones) ≠ no freedom.
 
"19 Year Old Woman Dies After 911 Call Put On Hold & Forgotten":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3VdIVFIX8E

How many times per century does that happen? Is it the normal outcome of calling 911?

How many people die because they didn't call 911? And how often can you not call 911?

And no, I don't agree with it. There are limits to freedom, that have to exist. Your freedom has to end, where the freedom of others begins.
 
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How many times per century does that happen?

Once is enough if you are the victim. Just ask Bethany Zimmerman, who called 911 and managed to scream "HELP" before the line went dead. Wait, nevermind, you can't. The next day she was found dead in her apartment. Had she owned a gun and had a small amount of training, she could have defended herself.

A google search for "911 calls ignored" yields over a half million results. Even considering that many of those refer to the same incidents, there is an alarming rate rate of ignored or mishandled calls. Yo CANNOT count on the police to save you. Many times they can, but it only takes one time when they can't for you to be DEAD.

I don't call 911, I call the dispatcher direct. Why? Because the area code on my cell phone is not local, and it's an older phone (no GPS). If I call 911 on that phone, it's about 50 -50 whether I get the local dispatch - or one 80 miles away. My sister uses Vonage (VOIP), and that is still far less than reliable at determining the physical location of the phone - she called 911 to report a bear in the yard (in the middle of town, no less) and was connected to a dispatcher over 300 miles away. It took several minutes to get her transfered to the local dispatcher because the dispatcher who originally took the call didn't even know how to transfer it - and had to look up the number as well.

Your freedom has to end, where the freedom of others begins.

My owning a gun does not infringe on anyone else's rights. Only if I use that gun to harm them do I infringe on their right, and that wouldn't be the gun's fault.

Far more people die from vehicle related causes than die from guns. By your argument I could say that motor vehicles should be banned since they can be used to harm other people, intentionally or not.

You claim that I should leave it to the "experts" to defend me. I say that if you own a car you should not be allowed to drive it until a mechanic comes and inspects it. After all, you aren't an expert so you can't be trusted to check the tire pressure or brakes, etc. If your car isn't in perfect condition it poses a risk to others, and infringes on their rights. For that matter, you probably aren't a highly trained expert driver with months of advanced training, so you shouldn't drive at all. Walk, or ride a bike, from Wolfsburg to Berlin. After all, taxi drivers don't get any more training than you do (the only extra training they get - even in Germany - is "classroom" training that has more to do with geography than it does the physics of vehicle motion and advanced driving techniques.)
 
Once is enough if you are the victim. Just ask Bethany Zimmerman, who called 911 and managed to scream "HELP" before the line went dead. Wait, nevermind, you can't. The next day she was found dead in her apartment. Had she owned a gun and had a small amount of training, she could have defended herself.

Or just as dead, with another gun now being used in crime. How much training do you think, somebody needs for being able to use a gun in combat? My personal estimate of my own and the performance of other soldiers, is that until the end of the basic training, we would have been dead meat in any real combat situation, after specialist training and a few exercises, we had been good enough to have a realistic chance against a skilled opponent.

I don't think that any civilian person, that also has a life outside the shooting range, can really get that kind of training, that is needed for really being able to defend.

I think it is even harmful to fuel the impression, that you need to defend yourself, because the police can't help you. It gives you a false impression of what is expected from you. As civilian, you are not expected to fight crime, you are expected to get as much distance between you and the crime as possible. Call for reinforcements, and then do your best to stay alive (With attacking the criminal being the final option, after all smarter options failed). In 99% of all cases, the hardworking honest citizen has simply no chance to fight a criminal alone, and if you can't expect help from your neighbors, you have to expect help from the police. And even if your neighbors can help you, you need to police to make sure that you don't end up as criminals yourself.

A gun in your hand, will not even help you much there. That you can shoot at cardboard targets is no directly useful combat skill, it takes other skills so you can apply this one. Especially it takes the skill to remain calm and under your control. All training is wasted effort, if you switch into the wrong autopilot ( ;) ) when the panic strikes you.

The better question is: Why did it take to the next day until she was found? Had the police been desensitized by the vast amount of fake calls?

A google search for "911 calls ignored" yields over a half million results. Even considering that many of those refer to the same incidents, there is an alarming rate rate of ignored or mishandled calls. Yo CANNOT count on the police to save you. Many times they can, but it only takes one time when they can't for you to be DEAD.

If this is the same internet we are talking about, we have 20 real incidents worldwide, and the rest being repeats, and faked stories by sympathizing users.
 
Well, in my experience you can get that level of training - if you're willing to invest time and money. Personally I started out with an advantage because I already had military training, but you still need at least one week's worth of intensive training in order to muster not just the skills but the confidence (another animal entirely) to not just use your weapon with proficiency but to understand when it's needed.

Now instructors' time isn't cheap (I was lucky to have some discount as a member of the local NCO association), ammo isn't cheap and after a a good day's worth of traning you'll probably hate the smell of gunpowder for a LONG time, your ears will ring with your instructors' voice yelling close to you as you're executing a double-feed unjam drill and your hands will be torn to shreds. Yet anyone who wants a weapon for something else that isn't some good fun at the range is doing oneself a disservice skipping that sort of ordeal.

After that, you still have to keep training, which fortunately is less taxing but still something you've got to do. I should mention that here in Switzerland carry permits must be renewed regularly (although only the shooting part is to be repeated) and the examiners will fail you not only if you can't get the required score, but if you do any manipulation wrong or break gun safety or range rules. The funny thing is that people who carry will probably train more than most cops, and all that training will come out of their pockets.

Now about 911 or 117 as it's called here. I know that if I call 117 a patrol car will come, the problem is when. We're unfortunately low on cops because in their infinite wisdom the Powers That Be decided to cut down on the expenses and the police academy was among the first victims. We'll get some more cops next year, but they're still too few. For instance in my area it took 2 years and the determination of the citizens to make life difficult for the drug pushers who had literally claimed the railways station as their own territory. We're still fighting to have a police station there, hope to see it before the sun goes red giant. Anyway, it still takes as long as 5 minutes for a patrol car to come about, add 5 minutes more if you're on the outskirts of the town. If you're living in one of the smaller centres out in the country, we're at about 15+ minutes time. Way too long. This is in no way the cops' fault, they're doing the best they can, they're just too few or too spread out.
 
Twenty incidents mean 20 dead people. I would not care to be one of them.

As for training, I can teach a person how to effectively defend themselves with a gun in about 2 hours, if they already have basic marksmanship skills. If not, a couple hours of training and a bit of practice will solve that. A "once a month" trip to the range will keep your skills up sufficiently. Most police officers don't go to the range that often, not do most soldiers. After all, the "criminal" isn't likely to trained in combat tactics.

I think you have no idea what it means to defend yourself from a criminal. In the military you were learning to fight trained opponents. Criminals are NOT trained opponents, and only a select few have any real idea how to use a gun effectively. They have no real idea of tactics other than "point and shoot". The ones who do are the serious "professional" criminals that people like us don't actually have to worry about. The 99% of criminals who would attack a civilian are the "amateurs", and they don't train. The kind of criminal you need to be able to defend against are the kind who have never seen a firing range (since they don't legally own the gun). The few who have been to a range (these are the nut-jobs with no prior criminal history, and quite rare) didn't get any real training in firearm combat. Most criminals are lazy. That's why they don't get jobs and support themselves legitimately. They have a "life outside the firing range". The kind of serious "hard-core" criminal who does actually train for combat isn't going to waste his time attacking you - he's robbing armored cars and banks and doesn't see a profit in racking up more charges for killing bystanders. No-one should attack someone like that alone - even if you are trained - and you don't need to. Simply stay out of his way and he will leave you alone - you aren't a threat.

Most police officers aren't that well trained either. They had a few sessions in the academy, but only the "special tactics" police get any real advanced training. The cops on patrol aren't trained to that level, nor do they practice enough to keep their skills intact after they leave the academy. They are taught the "Weaver Combat Stance" which is actually rather poor. It limits your ability to fire at a target to the side - and at the close ranges typical in most shoot-outs leaves the gun outside your protective zone. It works well to improve accuracy at the range, which creates a sense of confidence (which is vital to surviving) and is easy to teach and learn. Here in the US, at least, there are "reality shows" on TV showing actual footage of police shoot-outs. Watch one sometime, and you'll see that the cop is often almost as rattled than the criminal who initiated the firefight. The average accuracy rate for police in a firefight is one hit for every twelve rounds fired - the same as it is for criminals. Cops tend to win because they at least have SOME training, confidence (without which you WILL panic), and wear body armor. Few criminals own a kevlar vest.

In 99% of all cases, the hardworking honest citizen has simply no chance to fight a criminal alone, and if you can't expect help from your neighbors, you have to expect help from the police.

In 99% of all cases, the honest civilian DOES end up defending themselves alone. How can your neighbor help, unless he is armed and trained? The police will come, but probably not in time to help. You can HOPE for help, but you can't EXPECT it. Take it from an ex-cop, crime happens fast. By the time you know you are in danger it's going to be too late to call for for help. Cops have names for people who aren't prepared to take their safety in their own hands. We call them "Statistics" and "Victims".

With attacking the criminal being the final option

Of course fighting the criminal is the last option. With your mindset, you don't actually even have that option available if you need it. I do.
 
Twenty incidents mean 20 dead people. I would not care to be one of them.

About ten thousand times more people die because people not giving proper first aid or no first aid at all. And much more in accidents caused by using the mobile phone while driving.

Don't you think that you try to construct a problem from freak accidents, only for justifying your position?


As for training, I can teach a person how to effectively defend themselves with a gun in about 2 hours, if they already have basic marksmanship skills.

Ever had seen this "training" put to the test? In 2 hours, you can give them a short overview of what can be done, but the majority of things is training the proper reflexes and instinctive reactions.

I think you have no idea what it means to defend yourself from a criminal.

I have already done it against very stupid criminals without any proper training beyond coming from the village. Having received training only changed the number of options and gave me a much more realistic understanding of my capabilities. Like feeling very lucky that this guy did let me disarm him without much effort.

In the military you were learning to fight trained opponents. Criminals are NOT trained opponents, and only a select few have any real idea how to use a gun effectively. They have no real idea of tactics other than "point and shoot".

Which is still better than what you can teach people in two hours. Also, in the military, you train fighting opponents that are at least as good as you are, or generally much better than you, when put one on one. For learning to fight only the cowards and idiots, 2 hours of training is maybe enough. But do you really want to gamble with your life that the next criminal will be a coward and/or idiot? Or better suspect that your opponent will be dangerous, even if you are properly trained.

Overestimating your enemy until knowledge of the opposite is generally resulting in a longer life than by underestimating your enemy until you receive knowledge that it is opposite.

The ones who do are the serious "professional" criminals that people like us don't actually have to worry about. The 99% of criminals who would attack a civilian are the "amateurs", and they don't train. The kind of criminal you need to be able to defend against are the kind who have never seen a firing range (since they don't legally own the gun).

That is wishful thinking.

First of all: Professional criminals, are the least dangerous for you. because they are either not interested in you, or they are professional enough to not give you a chance to defend anyway and will also not try to kill you, unless it is necessary or part of the planned crime because murder means much more interest of the cops to find them.

The real danger is the amateur. Somebody who does not plan the situations from A to B with a plan C in the back hand, but who just thinks you are a good target and then gets into bad situations, including putting you at danger as well. Amateurs also react much more erratically and surprising. Professionals try to control the situation, amateurs are controlled by the situation and much more dangerous because of that.

The few who have been to a range (these are the nut-jobs with no prior criminal history, and quite rare) didn't get any real training in firearm combat. Most criminals are lazy. That's why they don't get jobs and support themselves legitimately.

I have the impression that laziness applies rather to those who decide to follow the herd. Criminals are not automatically lazy, they just have found a way to get what they want.

In the real world, criminals are usually people driven with their crimes. You will not be robbed, because this criminal is too lazy, but because he knows that he can get with a few minutes of work, more money than what he can get by legal work. And who rapes and kills women, does not do that because he is too lazy for a proper marriage. Crime is not just the result of people having failed life, but the result of laws simply getting violated. People become criminal because of many reasons, and there is no caste of criminals.

When a woman is killed in her apartment by an intruder, the chance that this intruder was a lazy criminal is almost zero: Such attackers are usually people who know that woman and usually had a relationship...maybe a one-sided one, but there is one.

Also, the members of gangs are never just criminals because they are lazy. They are members of that gang, because not being member means being a victim in some places.

Also, the mind police does not protect shooting ranges. There is not even a law that prevents criminals from also owning a legal gun... of simply rent a gun at a shooting range. The same laws that permit citizens to own guns also help criminals, remember. Unless he is caught, he is as innocent as you are. And even then, it is no guarantee. You don't need much criminal energy, if you have relations.

Most police officers aren't that well trained either. Of course fighting the criminal is the last option. With your mindset, you don't actually even have that option available if you need it. I do.

I have - I just don't own a gun, since I don't expect having to defend myself over a distance that is longer than the range of my arm. And if you want, anything in a house can be a deadly weapon. Maybe even more deadly than a pistol.

But my first choice would be getting distance. Call me a coward, but I think it is better to be alive, than to play the hero and overestimate my luck. What gets stolen, can be replaced, but a life, that is really priceless. And if you read your Sun-Tzu, you know that it can be pretty smart to even let your enemy have a chance to run away.

PS: I also know that most cops will choose the same. Cops are pretty much like most criminals in some aspects: They will not attack until forced or in the situation where they can get you without risking injury themselves. But if things look bad, they will run and hide.
 
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As for training, I can teach a person how to effectively defend themselves with a gun in about 2 hours, if they already have basic marksmanship skills. If not, a couple hours of training and a bit of practice will solve that.

No offence meant, but are you serious? A couple of hours? That may be enough to teach the techniques but it's not enough for drills and getting the mindset in. I can teach you to use a Panzerfaust III antitank weapon in 15 minutes but I'm not expecting you to use it effectively in combat even after one day of training. Can your students clear a jam in complete darkness with a string of firecrackers going off at their feet and about 2 seconds left to engage the target?

I agree that your average criminal will not be trained in combat techniques and tactics, but he excel at two things: surprise and intimidation. They do that very well. It's their bread and butter. They throw their target off-balance with verbal and physical threats and they back them up with facts. Your street criminal is fully willing, ready and able to bash you over the head with a crowbar only so that you can't have your credit cards cancelled or simply call the police after they're gone. If they carry a knife, they will use it. If your student goes into "white" condition at that point, not even the Wave Motion Gun from Uchuu Senkan Yamato will save them. Weapon number one is the mind, the firearms is a tool of Weapon number one.

I think you have no idea what it means to defend yourself from a criminal. In the military you were learning to fight trained opponents. Criminals are NOT trained opponents, and only a select few have any real idea how to use a gun effectively.

Well... I do, at least the criminals around here, and I have this rule of never underestimating my opponent. I also have this rule about staying tactical and keeping flexible. This means I have other options beside the firearm, because what happens if you are confronted by a bunch of drunk teenagers out for trouble? Do you have some good OC with you? And I mean the long-range, knock-a-crazed-rottweiler-on-crack-down kind, not the small pepper spray can you buy at the mall that is about 2 cm worth of range and marginally more irritating than Chanel n° 5.

Of course fighting the criminal is the last option. With your mindset, you don't actually even have that option available if you need it. I do.

It also would help if civilians would get some other kind of training, which is basic street survival techniques such as: finding out if someone is trailing you, throw off a tail and above all stay focused. A good lot of people end up in trouble because they let their minds wander off. It's also the cause of a great lot of accidents. I'm all for armed citizens but as you said, the correct mindset is the key.
 
I said that I can train someone in a couple hours, and I ALSO SAID "and some practice". It only takes a couple hours to teach the techniques. Most of the practice can be done at home with an unloaded weapon.

The best way to learn proper trigger pull is with an unloaded weapon (preferably with the firing pin removed). Place a coin on the barrel - if it falls off when you pull the trigger you are jerking the trigger, rather than squeezing it.

Clearing jams is best practiced at home as well. When I teach someone to use a gun I give them "dummy" loads (spent ammo with a fresh bullet - but no powder or primer. These rounds are dyed red so you don't get them confused with live ammo. I have them clean the weapon (helps double check that it is fully unloaded) then practice the drills while watching TV. Since they aren't fully focused on the gun, the "distraction" of the TV helps ensure that the routine becomes ingrained in the subconscious - what is often referred to as "Muscle Memory". If a jam does occur, the movements needed to clear the jam are reflexive, often you will have cleared the jam before you consciously notice that you had one. Also, jams don't occur in revolvers - and rarely in properly maintained autos with a single column magazine. It's the "staggered" high capacity magazine, low caliber guns that tend to jam, and I don't recommend them.

Ever had seen this "training" put to the test?

Yes, often. I was firearms coach in the Army. Before I was injured in a rappelling incident, I was scheduled to join the Army's Pistol team. I also have a degree in criminology as well as years of experience "in the field". While it's true that rapist's aren't lazy like low - level thieves, they are crazy people who rarely have any real training with their weapon - and tend to work alone.

Defending yourself with a firearm isn't a matter of just pulling it out and "going gangsta". Reaching for a gun in a concealed hip holster doesn't look much different than reaching for a wallet - act scared (usually isn't an act - you SHOULD be scared) and tell the guy he can have your money and beg him not to shoot. Don't actually draw until the guy is looking you in the eye (and not at your hand) and is talking - he will be slow to react while he's thinking about what he's saying.

For a civilian, running away can sometimes be a good option - but many times it will mean a bullet in the back. Having a gun doesn't mean you will always win, but it does significantly increase your options - and the more options you have the better chance that one of those options will work.

For a soldier or police officer, running away isn't an option. A "tactical withdrawal" to wait for back-up is, but police are expected to deal with the situation. It's their job. Run away, and you won't have a job.

Use of force is always the last option. Police are trained to try and avoid that as much as possible, and get more training on how to defuse a situation than they do on combat. But sometimes force is the ONLY option.

Guns exist. They aren't going to go away simply because you would like them to. Not everyone needs to have a gun, as I've said I don't have any guns at home, nor do I carry one since I left the Law Enforcement/Security field. Where I live now, it's not uncommon for people to leave their doors unlocked - it's a very low risk area.

Other people live in high risk areas, or have high risk jobs like couriers or store managers (who have to take large cash deposits to a bank.) Many of these people have a real, rational reason to carry a gun - and they should be allowed to.

Neither I, nor anyone else who's posted in this thread, has shown any opposition to REASONABLE gun restrictions. A gun BAN is NOT reasonable, given the reality that guns exist and criminals have them. A gun ban won't change that fact.
 
Again - can you train the needed things in just a few hours?

What you describe is not done well in a few hours, alone without the needed repetitions, you would need a few days of a seminar to get that done well. For making sure that the training also works in real stressful situations, you need repeat every tiny thing again and again. Just like flight training. It is one thing to know how to activate auto-rotation on a helicopter. But remembering this knowledge instantly in an emergency, without trail and error in critical situations, or the need to look for the manual, can mean the difference between a successful intact landing and your death. The better you are, the less altitude you need below you for being safe. And if you just had the first auto-rotation lesson, not even dropping from the mesosphere will give you the time to save you.

And on the acting stuff... forget Hollywood. While being able to deceive the enemy is a key ability in war, neither will all students have the same talent for it, nor will the enemy always be susceptible for acting. And if your enemy is already pointing a weapon at you, even if he is stupid enough to stand in front of you, he will have much more chances to shoot you if you try something stupid. Even a stupid beginner could shoot you easily, if he notices that you pull out a weapon, long before you are even able to point this weapon at his feet.

This is all too late for pulling out the gun, you already need to be ready to use it BEFORE the enemy is ready. It can help you, if you hear somebody searching your house for valuable things, and it can help you if you see somebody else getting robbed. But it does not help you if you do more stupid errors than the criminal.

I have no problem with letting specialists handle guns, that are also able to follow the duty to do the needed training to employ a gun properly in real situations. Real situations are those, in which Murphy is laughing at your face. Where everything that can go wrong, will go wrong eventually. If you are not prepared for this, you are not ready. And not being ready can mean the death of involved and uninvolved people.

Thus, I am deeply against total gun freedom. Criminals exist. Correct. To quote my current chancellor: "There are so many laws, that it is impossible to not violate one". But I am less afraid of the armed criminal, than about the armed wannabe cop. Crime is inevitable, stupid amateurs can be prevented.
 
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Yes, I can train any reasonably intelligent person in a few hours. Whether or not they practice is out of my control, but by not insisting they spend many, many hours at the range and teaching them how they can do it at home, in their spare time, it's much more likely that they WILL practice.

As for stressful situations, I've been trained in unarmed hand to hand in a few different "schools". The Army, and most of my other instructors, tried to create a "stressful situation" so I would be acclimated to stress. One instructor never raised his voice, rather he used the same kind of "practice this move while you watch TV" type of training I later adopted in firearms training. As a former cop, I've had to use hand to hand combat skills many times, often in "life or death" situations. Guess which techniques I invariably use? As a Military Police on an infantry post, in most cases my opponent was well trained - far better trained than most criminals in the civilian world. I defeated people who were larger, stronger, and allegedly better trained than I was. Every time. Without even thinking about it. BECAUSE I didn't think about it - I simply acted, using techniques that were not second nature, but FIRST nature because of the "subconscious" drills. The fact that I survived, without serious injury, is all the proof I will ever need that it works. Several of the people I have trained have told me that the training methods I taught them - often in just a few hours - have saved their lives.

Even a stupid beginner could shoot you easily, if he notices that you pull out a weapon, long before you are even able to point this weapon at his feet.

Even a beginner could shoot you easily if you try to disarm him, as you claim to have done. Yet you survived, so obviously it's not at all impossible. In fact, disarming an opponent is far riskier that drawing a weapon and shooting them - unless they are within one meter of you - in which case it's even odds, assuming you are equally well trained at both. Disarming is MORE dangerous to anyone in the area - it's very difficult to disarm someone without one round being fired. Even with special training, you expect one round to be fired, and make sure it doesn't hit you. Anyone behind you may not be so lucky. This is why police are taught to shoot rather than attempt to disarm. Taking a gun away from someone is the most dangerous thing you can attempt to do - both for you and even more so for anyone within range (and wooden walls or car doors will NOT stop a bullet). It is absolutely reckless and irresponsible.

While being able to deceive the enemy is a key ability in war, neither will all students have the same talent for it, nor will the enemy always be susceptible for acting.

With the exception of some serial killers or rapist who actually hope to be stopped, ALL criminals are optimists. They believe they will win. They believe that they will "get away with it", or they wouldn't do it in the first place. Add to that the fact that you WILL be scared, and the aggressor EXPECTS you to be scared. People tend to see what they expect to see - not what is really in front of them. It would be far harder to convince the aggressor that you aren't scared - even if that's true.

I wouldn't send a cop out with just a few hours of training, but for a civilian who will most likely never need to use the gun it's enough.

Think of it like a car. Very few people are expert drivers. Even in Germany, which has reasonable standards for driver education, people aren't really trained for a blow-out. They are told what to do, but they don't actually practice with a car equipped with a blow-out simulator. Considering that a blow-out is far more likely than being attacked by a gunman (even in America, with our liberal gun laws) that doesn't make much sense, if your logic is used. I was trained in the same driving school used by the Secret Service to train the Presidential drivers. I also have a few years experience in SCCA sanctioned racing. By my standards, 99.9% of all drivers are severely undertrained, and pose a very real threat to society. Since far more people die from Auto Accidents (I don't believe in Auto Accidents, only Driver Errors) by your logic no-one without the same training I have should be allowed to drive.

Thus, I am deeply against total gun freedom.

Again, I'll point out that no-one here is in favor of "total gun freedom". You clearly advocate gun bans for non-police, which is not even partial gun freedom.

But I am less afraid of the armed criminal, than about the armed wannabe cop.

This is irrational. Even in countries that effectively have "total gun freedom" your chances of being shot by a "wannabe cop" are significantly lower than your chances of being shot by a criminal. It's like the people here in Wisconsin who would rather have concealed carry than keep the Open Carry we already have. They get afraid when they see the gun, so they would rather have them hidden. It's insane - you are much safer if you can see the threat and act accordingly. You are far safer with a realistic and reasonable gun policy than you ever would be with unrealistic restrictions, yet you favor the restrictions that INCREASE your danger. If you want to live like an Ostrich, with your head in the sand, be my guest. Just don't try to force others to do the same.
 
I am a bit busy here, no time for a full reply, but something that should be settled quickly:

Even a beginner could shoot you easily if you try to disarm him, as you claim to have done. Yet you survived, so obviously it's not at all impossible.

Yes, and that "not at all impossible" is the danger behind it. I had been extremely lucky and I know it. I wouldn't try the same stunt again today.

The other guy wasn't the fastest thinker, which made it easier to be one or two steps ahead of him. A smarter opponent might have noticed earlier that the situation slips out of his control. Also his two friends that had been one step behind him, instead of securing me from the side, had been no help for him as well. Or that it happened at a place with good visibility of the area, between two quarters of the town. There had been so many variables in my favor, that it worked that day, despite me having no clue about what I was actually doing there or that such variables even existed. In this universe, it worked, in a few million others, I was at last beaten plaid by three teenage bullies.

How much knowledge do you have about your luck?

Today, in exactly the same situation, I would not do the same. I would try to disarm him as well, sure. But I would do it differently, because I am now knowing about tactical situations, and have much more options in close combat. In that case, I wouldn't rely as much on luck as I did back then, because I am different now.

But if the situation would be just slightly less in favor for me, I would have to forget that option.
 
I am intimately familiar with my luck. Keep in mind that I am a former cop, and have faced armed opponents more than once. I am alive today in part because of my luck, in part because I took the initiative to get training beyond what was provided to me, and in part because I wore body armor.

I will tell you again, disarming an opponent with a gun is absolutely irresponsible. It should be the ABSOLUTE last resort - even after using lethal force. Unless you have been well trained in Krav Maga or something similar, AND practice it regularly, you are creating a lethal hazard for everyone within a few hundred meters of you. You are more likely to cause death or injury to an innocent bystander than the criminal with the gun is . There is a better than even chance at least one round will be fired, and you will have almost no control over where that round goes. Contrary to "Hollywood reality", a 9mm round can penetrate 12 inches of wood, three inches of brick, a concrete "cinder block", both doors of a car, or a dumpster, etc. and remain lethal.

I could probably have disarmed the guy who shot me, (I do have that training, and practiced it a few times a week) but chose not to for that reason. My chances of surviving with my vest were better than the chances any bystander had without one.
 
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