Question Is it possible to land a Boeing 747 being a layman

[garyw]

What if the plane was hijacked?
It could conceivably turn out so that the fighting to retake the plane would incapacitate all the crew.
In fact, hijacking is probably the only likely scenario that would leave a big plane with no pilots.

I agree. In the case of a hijacking though all bets are off because you don't know what the hijackers are planning.

Other kind is much spookier - a ghost plane like the Helios Airways Flight 522 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia , when everyone on board died from lack of oxygen except for one sturdy fellow, who tried to land it but the fuel ran out too early.

Not quite. The FA didn't try to land it, he entered the flightdeck and didn't even retune the radio. Something of a mystery as to why he waited nearly three hours to do so rather than simply putting oxygen masks on the pilot and co-pilot as soon as he realised they had a cabin pressuration failure.

The full story can be watched here:

 

[FADEC]

A few things to be aware of - if you are talking a 747 you'll probably have 4 or 6 pilots. 2 for the outbound, 2 or 4 for the cruise and the original 2 for the landing.
With flight crew limitations on the hours you do end up with quite a few pilots on a long-haul flight. You might even have a pilot or two on the plane dead heading to the destination so landing a 747 shouldn't be an issue.

More than 3 pilots actually was something during the old days (747-300 and below). South African Airways for example does carry only a third pilot, the "in-flight relief", on flights above 8 hours with a 747-400. Lufhansa does do so as well. You get three pilots from Frankfurt to LA for example. The two guys who take off usually are the guys who also land. The in-flight relief does replace the pilot and first officer alternately for a certain period of time so they can get 2-3 hours of sleep each.

In the movie they fly from NY to LA. So two pilots on that route in a 747-400 is realistic.

 

[Ark]

Am I actually the only one who fantasizes about a trip in an airliner where some kind of incidents requires a passenger to take over and your Flight Simulator experience actually makes you the best suited candidate? :lol:

Totally. But what are the odds of you being the best qualified person on the whole plane? Even private pilot's license trainee would rank above "FSX nut". :lol:

Anyway, with someone talking you through it I imagine it couldn't be that hard in clear weather and an undamaged plane. Personally, with ATC control and a huge runway I like to imagine I could do it. What do you really need?

-Recognize and read altimeter, artificial horizon, and airspeed indicator.
-Basic pitch/roll/yaw control coordination.
-Locate flap, throttle, reverse thrust and wheel brake controls.
-Know your stall speed to be able to make approach without stalling or overshooting.

The big challenge for me would be in figuring out how to contact ATC and ask for instructions, since real life doesn't have autotune. Final approach would be tricky too, I'm used to being lazy and switching to external view when flaring and touching down. In a 747, the last bit of the approach and touchdown would be done blind.

 

[SuprunP]

Helios Airways Flight 522

This is a most interesting case. One selector in the wrong position and two pilots with all their training and experience couldn't work it out...

 

[Moach]

i've accumulated a handful of hours on the 747 in different simulation scenarios (mostly PMDG and MFSF default) -- it's a heavy, indeed - but it's also a very forgiving airplane, with formidable stability from good old 60's engineering (when it HAD to fly well, cause there weren't computers to make it do so artificially)


and even though the cabin is higher than usual - albeit i don't see why a non-pilot would see that as an "added" difficulty, considering that individual has no basis for comparison - the 747 features a very, very powerful ground effect on landing...

so powerful it is, that with a landing-worthy fuel load it's lightweight enough that there's no need to flare the nose any more than the angle it already comes in at.... (actually, flaring tends to make it "float off")

so of all airliners, the 747 is actually a pretty smooth beast to touchdown with, as it kinda flares off by itself, and all you gotta do is keep the nose steady untill wheels down



now, i do believe the mythbusters have it right (as always) -- any sufficiently intelligent, not panic-prone passenger (preferrably with whatever engineering, physics or whatever technical knowledge) could indeed be able to land an airplane with good help over comms

no help - and you better hope there's a flight-sim nut aboard :thumbup:


last time i flew, i was seated by the emergency exit - and there, you get a set of instructions of how to operate the exit in case of emergency - and it says "if you don't feel capable, ask an attendant to have you repositioned"...

i read through those notes, looked around, then reckoned there was probably nobody (except crew) in that plane more indicated than myself to sit by that exit.... :lol:


i like to think i would be very much capable of landing a crewless jet if need came about.... however unlikely that scenario would be....

i guess everyone here and flight-sim geeks everywhere feel the same

 

[Keatah]

I have enough experience with flight simulator and other pc games that it would be no problem.

 

[FADEC]

i've accumulated a handful of hours on the 747 in different simulation scenarios (mostly PMDG and MFSF default) --

The PMDG 747 is a good one to start with. It's actually the most complex 747-400 sim out there. If you can handle it correctly, you most likely will be able to do it with a real 747-400 full motion simulator and even with the real plane.

it's a heavy, indeed - but it's also a very forgiving airplane, with formidable stability from good old 60's engineering (when it HAD
to fly well, cause there weren't computers to make it do so artificially)

...

so of all airliners, the 747 is actually a pretty smooth beast to touchdown with, as it kinda flares off by itself, and all you gotta do is keep the nose steady untill wheels down

Indeed. The 747 is called to be a very good and easy to control airplane. I've heard lots of compliments in documentaries but also from pilots in real life.

Just switch to 06:45 for one example:

 

[C3PO]

I have enough experience with flight simulator and other pc games that it would be no problem.

In that case it's probably better that you'll never have to find out. :lol:

It's amazing how much difference it makes when the [Reset simulation] button isn't working.

 

[TMac3000]

Is it possible for a person with no experience to land a 747? Absolutely:yes:

Will there be much left of it? That depends on an awful lot of variables.

 

[dumbo2007]

I think a big difference would also be made by the fact that any change in the plane's orientation would need you to readjust yourself. That doesn't happen on a flight sim with the steady ground beneath your feet for reference.

Combine that with possibly complete darkness outside the cockpit, pressurization issues due to sudden descent and the prospect of a single mistake killing not just yourself and suddenly all the flight sim experience will seem to be not so useful, as your ability to be calm amidst a life threatening situation

 

[insanity]

I think most of you are totally nuts! I have flown countless hours in PMDG 737 and 747s, know the (simulated) systems almost inside-out, but the difference between a joystick on a PC and a flight yoke on a real flightdeck are day and night.

Before you even get vectored for an ILS, you will of had to bleed a whole lot of airspeed (safely), checked over the instruments and displays, configured the flaps at the right time, know exactly which mode controls need to be operative and when, have cued up the right approach in your FMS, descended to approach altitude (again, safely). Then the actual landing (even autoland) requires you to throw up the speedbrakes, reversers, and the right setting of autobrakes before your toe brakes do the rest.

One mistake could easily be the difference between a miracle and killing everybody because you thought your hours in FSX made you qualified to take lives in your own hands.

I, personally, would rather leave the flying up to the guys with stripes on their jackets.

Honestly, there is a reason why the guys who get paid the fly the heavy iron have countless hours and training under their belts.

Simplistic analogy:
do you think playing FORZA 3 makes you a world-class racing driver? If so, I'd love to see what happens when you take an F1 car out around a real track and inevitably spin-off.

 

[dumbo2007]

and then there is the annoyed ATC ...for messing around in her backyard :

 

[blane]

I think most of you are totally nuts! [...]

I really don't think it would be as bad. Granted, IRL and FSX are two different worlds. Especially because IRL you will know what's at stake and likely be very nervous.

However, The Boeing Autopilot basically comes with all you need, even Airspeed hold. Also, as being said, you will have to rely on good ATC, a dedicated person who will tell you everything you need to know. (Not only *what* but also where to find any switches, etc.)

I would imagine, ATC would mostly guide you to program the autopilot correctly. And you would probably be allowed to reduce your speed earlier than usual, for safer margins.

It'd be a really interesting experiment. I'd like to hop in a real 747 simulator, and have some ATC guy try to get me land safely.

 

[insanity]

However, The Boeing Autopilot basically comes with all you need, even Airspeed hold. Also, as being said, you will have to rely on good ATC, a dedicated person who will tell you everything you need to know. (Not only *what* but also where to find any switches, etc.)

And what happens the second you get an FMS warning about glidescope or airspeed or need to program in a manual intervention in the AP? I think people whose only experience is flipping virtual switches are full of confidence that will get shaken away the second they feel hundreds of lives and tons of iron in their hands. Even if the landing is successful, I think getting the plane stopped safely would be an even bigger challenge.

I would imagine, ATC would mostly guide you to program the autopilot correctly. And you would probably be allowed to reduce your speed earlier than usual, for safer margins.

It'd be a really interesting experiment. I'd like to hop in a real 747 simulator, and have some ATC guy try to get me land safely.

The experiment they did in Mythbusters was a generic cockpit, not molded off of any specific airplane (i.e. not realistic). I would also like to have a hand in trying the real-deal simulator myself one day and see what happens. Even if I could do it in the Level D, I still think that I wouldn't be qualified to put the thing on the ground IRL. If you've ever flown an airplane (especially one with another human being in it), you learn real quickly that FSX is a great learning tool, but it isn't close to the 'real deal'. Even in a Cessna.

 

[FADEC]

I think most of you are totally nuts! I have flown countless hours in PMDG 737 and 747s, know the (simulated) systems almost inside-out, but the difference between a joystick on a PC and a flight yoke on a real flightdeck are day and night.

Before you even get vectored for an ILS, you will of had to bleed a whole lot of airspeed (safely), checked over the instruments and displays, configured the flaps at the right time, know exactly which mode controls need to be operative and when, have cued up the right approach in your FMS, descended to approach altitude (again, safely). Then the actual landing (even autoland) requires you to throw up the speedbrakes, reversers, and the right setting of autobrakes before your toe brakes do the rest.

One mistake could easily be the difference between a miracle and killing everybody because you thought your hours in FSX made you qualified to take lives in your own hands.

I, personally, would rather leave the flying up to the guys with stripes on their jackets.

Honestly, there is a reason why the guys who get paid the fly the heavy iron have countless hours and training under their belts.

Simplistic analogy:
do you think playing FORZA 3 makes you a world-class racing driver? If so, I'd love to see what happens when you take an F1 car out around a real track and inevitably spin-off.

There are different kinds of flight sim enthusiasts. The casuals which like to use default stuff and play around from time to time. Those who take it serious with professional addons. Those who take it even more serious with professional addons and real aircraft operating manuals (that's me) and those who go the final step of buying/building a fixed base home sim (which I am planning to do).

Take the casuals aside and don't underrate the fanatic enthusiasts which are capable to fly the real thing with instructions from ATC better than anybody else except the real pilots of course

 

[francisdrake]

While I pretty much enjoy flying small turboprops in FSX I think flying big aircraft is quite difficult. Especially at approach speeds the flap settings have to match closely the required position, otherwise you stall or damage the flaps.

Unless you have someone experienced at hand to talk you through in real-world flight, you probably would not match speed and flap setting, so there is a high chance of either stalling the plane during approach or overshooting the runway by far due to late touchdown and excess landing speed.

When being a passenger in a plane I definitely prefer the crew doing their job ...

 

[Codz]

There are different kinds of flight sim enthusiasts. The casuals which like to use default stuff and play around from time to time. Those who take it serious with professional addons. Those who take it even more serious with professional addons and real aircraft operating manuals (that's me) and those who go the final step of buying/building a fixed base home sim (which I am planning to do).

Take the casuals aside and don't underrate the fanatic enthusiasts which are capable to fly the real thing with instructions from ATC better than anybody else except the real pilots of course

A320 homecockpit - first rollout with 160 degree visual system - YouTube

B737 simulator landing - YouTube

I would call that certifiably insane...:lol: If I put that kind of time and effort into FSX or X-Plane, then I'd rather just study for a real pilots license.

 

[FADEC]

I would also like to have a hand in trying the real-deal simulator myself one day and see what happens. Even if I could do it in the Level D, I still think that I wouldn't be qualified to put the thing on the ground IRL. If you've ever flown an airplane (especially one with another human being in it), you learn real quickly that FSX is a great learning tool, but it isn't close to the 'real deal'. Even in a Cessna.

I got the chance to fly a 737-300 full motion sim just a few kilometers from my home (we have a training center here and the operator is a friend of my former neighbour). It was no deal at all. Neither take off, nor the landing. It even was easier than on PC because you have all the controls accessible way quicker with your hands and by body movement other than using either a mouse or track IR to look around in a virtual flight deck on a small TFT on your desk. The instructor said it's not unusual that flight sim enthusiasts are able to fly good up to almost perfect. But he also mentioned beginners who also could fly without having ever done it before, especially women allegedly.

I also flew a real Piper. It was not that much different, except the behaviour of winds and turbulences is different. But it is as easy as in the sim. The pilot even let me do parts of the approach. He didn't even always look what I was doing after he realised my background knowledge after talking and flying.

So especially for people with a good background knowledge and flight sim experiences it would be no problem at all to auto land even a 747 with good instructions from ATC.

---------- Post added at 09:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:49 PM ----------

I would call that certifiably insane...:lol: If I put that kind of time and effort into FSX or X-Plane, then I'd rather just study for a real pilots license.

Actually yes But I can't do so sadly due to issues with my digestive organs and allergic asthma. Building or buying a fixed base sim is way cheaper than getting an ATPL. On the other hand, it's no real flying, but still a good compromise if you can't become a real pilot.

---------- Post added at 09:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:54 PM ----------

By the way, even a 7 years old can do it with a good instructor at a side :lol:

 

[captjdk]

Fun thread. Most transport category aircraft are pretty easy to fly with all the automation working...autopilot, autothrottles, flight director. It's just a matter of dialing this number, pushing that button, etc... in the right sequence. With autobrakes and autoland, the plane will track the centerline and break to a stop....if everything works correctly. :thumbup:

Dave
737 Captain

 

[insanity]

There are different kinds of flight sim enthusiasts. The casuals which like to use default stuff and play around from time to time. Those who take it serious with professional addons. Those who take it even more serious with professional addons and real aircraft operating manuals (that's me) and those who go the final step of buying/building a fixed base home sim (which I am planning to do).

On my desk you will find a copy of the b737 handbook. The first program I ever wrote (in a 'real' language) was something that could return v-speeds given weight (and flap setting) for the ERJ-170. I am pretty enthralled by flight and more than that, I love plotting flight plans and then flying them as real as possible. I just am not diluted enough to think that makes me good at anything but a computer program that depicts flight.