Little questions of "what if..."

OrbiterSpore

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...IF there was an perfect copy of Earth's atmosphere, thermal[is this right?] conditions and gravity, only without oxygen, with a small number of local plants, could have any way to "inject" oxygen in a closed system using only local resources?
...IF Europa has oceans, what kind of life could live there?
...IF someone builds an Gas Giant-proof spacecraft, what the sight from inside could look like?
...IF somehow the necessary budget, resources and motivation for an small orbital city where available today or 25-30 yrs away, how the citizens could deal with the difficulties of the life in microgravity and lack of space?
...IF Mars can be "terraformed", how could it have minimal conditions for life?

Yep, i want to get more nerdy than i am now. :P
 
OrbiterSpore said:
...IF somehow the necessary budget, resources and motivation for an small orbital city where available today or 25-30 yrs away, how the citizens could deal with the difficulties of the life in microgravity and lack of space?
It doesn't have to be in microgravity, it can spin to create artificial gravity, take a look at Orbiter's Luna-OB1 for an example.

OrbiterSpore said:
...IF Europa has oceans, what kind of life could live there?
AFAIK any life form that can breathe underwater. There is heat coming from the core of the moon, otherwise there wouldn't be any liquid water at all...


OrbiterSpore said:
...IF someone builds an Gas Giant-proof spacecraft, what the sight from inside could look like?
I don't think it could look too much... very deep inside a gas giant, pressures are so high that is becomes a liquid and, at the center, solid. If you mean something like descending into the upper layers, then you would see clouds, storms, lightning bolts and stuff like that.
 
...IF there was an perfect copy of Earth's atmosphere, thermal[is this right?] conditions and gravity, only without oxygen, with a small number of local plants, could have any way to "inject" oxygen in a closed system using only local resources?

No higher plants could survive there since they actually breathe oxygen like us (they only use CO2 for photosynthesis, which is basically a way to make "food" using energy from sunlight).

The best option would probably be to electrolyse water for the oxygen, and hope the hydrogen escapes into space easily enough.

...IF Europa has oceans, what kind of life could live there?

I see no reason why complex life couldn't exist on Europa.

Such life, should it exist, would probably have a hydrodynamic appearance, and the autotrophs of the ecology would use chemosynthesis, getting their energy from chemicals near hydrothermal vents, just as similar communities do on Earth.

They won't have eyes, at least, not as we know them. But they could have simple visual organs to sense the dim light emitted by hot water, or even Cherenkov radiation emitted by radioactive materials. Instead they would rely on things like electrosense, or even a form of echolocation (sonar) as a visual sense.

...IF someone builds an Gas Giant-proof spacecraft, what the sight from inside could look like?

Depends on your altitude or depth.

Around the top of the clouds, it'd be like flying through clouds in an aircraft on Earth, but with no land below- only more clouds. And the clouds would have those garish Jovian colours as well (they should, right?). The sky would be blue, at least near the top of the atmosphere.

As you gained depth, things would get darker and cloudier... eventually, deep within the planet (in indestructable hull territory) the actual fluid surrounding the ship would be incandescent.

...IF somehow the necessary budget, resources and motivation for an small orbital city where available today or 25-30 yrs away, how the citizens could deal with the difficulties of the life in microgravity and lack of space?

Simple: the "city" would be built in a way so that it could generate artificial gravity, and be high-volume, such as an inflatable structure or even an expended rocket stage (the so called "wet workshop" concept has been studied for both Apollo and the Shuttle ET, and Skylab was an evolution of it- it was a "dry workshop" as such, it was still a space station built from a rocket stage).

The simplest arrangement would probably be two rocket tanks attached by a tether and presumably some sort of inflatable tunnel, spun end over end, but the actual specifications of the cite would be determined by the population and their activites onboard.

...IF Mars can be "terraformed", how could it have minimal conditions for life?

I'm not exactly sure what you mean... the conditions for life on a terraformed Mars depend on what the end product of terraformation are intended to be, and what stage of terraforming Mars is in.
 
IF Mars can be "terraformed", how could it have minimal conditions for life?

I guess Mars already have conditions suitable for some extremophile life. Deeper underground there should be a places where licquid water is present especially where there is elevated geothemal heat flux. You don't need anything more than some water and rocks to have conditions suitable for extremophile bacteria.
 
a few more random cents to throw in:

...IF there was an perfect copy of Earth's atmosphere, thermal[is this right?] conditions and gravity, only without oxygen, with a small number of local plants, could have any way to "inject" oxygen in a closed system using only local resources?
As I'm sure you know, Earth plants take in CO2 and produce O2, so the plants themselves generate the oxygen. So the easiest way to 'inject' O2 into the system, would be to progress plant reproduction. That said, it is feasible to conceive of an O2-less atmosphere in which life has learnt to utilise another chemical for the same (or similar purpose). There have been some odd organic life found on earth living of Sulphur for example... In such cases, perhaps the system itself could therefore not produce oxygen.

...IF Europa has oceans, what kind of life could live there?
Read this for example. To quote: "Scientists have gone down to explore and study these deep ocean hydrothermal vents and were completely surprised to find the areas immediately around the vents teeming with abundant life."

...IF someone builds an Gas Giant-proof spacecraft, what the sight from inside could look like?
boring I would have thought, like flying through a coloured cloud.

...IF somehow the necessary budget, resources and motivation for an small orbital city where available today or 25-30 yrs away, how the citizens could deal with the difficulties of the life in microgravity and lack of space?
For lack of space, they should study the Japanese, what with all their corporate lunchtime sleep pods and such. ;)
As to microgravity... I would amputate everyone's legs. Thus reducing redundant weight and calorie intake, making them more manoeuvrable, leaving only their arms needing resistance weight training, and also making them take up less space in fact! Also removes any need for complicated centrifuges and such.

...IF Mars can be "terraformed", how could it have minimal conditions for life?
In my limited understanding, the main problem with Mars is the temperature, so it needs warming up. This would be done with greenhouse gasses such as CO2... so basically we just need to put all our current dirty industry on mars and we're good to go! ;)


WHAP
 
As to microgravity... I would amputate everyone's legs. Thus reducing redundant weight and calorie intake, making them more manoeuvrable, leaving only their arms needing resistance weight training, and also making them take up less space in fact! Also removes any need for complicated centrifuges and such.

Amputate their legs!? :blink:

How do you expect them to walk again if/when they decide to return home? :shifty:

The problems of microgravity, namely muscoskeletal and cardiovascular decay, actually have very little to do with legs, and I have a feeling metabolic requirements don't either. In microgravity, you waste away, legs or not. This is because you- not your legs, not your arms, your entire body, essentially, has to work less. No pesky gravity to deal with, so the body thinks "oh boy, I can slack off now!"

Unfortunately, laziness never did anyone much good... including biology. Which means that everything does decide to "slack off" and atrophy, but it does so that it gets to the point where it's unhealthy. After only a few months in space, those returning home are weak and need to become accustomed to Earth's gravitational pull again.

After years in space, you get to the point where bone becomes so porous that even a mundane force can be injurious- such as a pat on the back breaking a vertebra.

If anything, legs will lessen the impact of microgravity... as counterintuitive as it may seem. They actually provide slightly more excersise for the rest of the body, because the arms have to pull around that extra mass.

The same goes for metabolic needs, as I'm pretty sure, that organs such as the brain and heart are the biggest energy users in the body, not the legs. And pumping blood through the legs- even in microgravity, is excersise for the heart, even if it's a little bit. I admit though that I know nothing about the cardiovascular systems of double amputees...

Legs are also not useless in microgravity, they are obviously not used for locomotion as they are on Earth, but they do allow for movement, and for aiding a person in positioning themself within a cabin, and even for shifting one's center of mass. In that regard I would consider double amputation to put astronauts at a disadvantage in terms of manuverability.

Centrifuges are not complex, they can actually be quite simple... my spinning fuel tank (or transhab, if you wish) idea is really simple as things go, even if it is untested (well, such an arrangement was tested on a Gemini mission, but not in such an elaborate manner and not with a spin fast enough to produce any appreciable acceleration, though astronauts did note objects slowly floating toward the direction of acceleration).

Granted, a despun section with a rotating seal would be pretty 'interesting', but it should not be impossible. If we can't build such a device for creating essential conditions for human survival, we cannot truely call ourselves a spacefaring race- or say that we have a chance of living for more than about a year in space.

And even if it is costly, it's worth it compared to the human rights uproar you'd get for amputating astronauts legs and sending them to their doom (by microgravity atrophication), even from your own citizens. Nevermind finding doctors willing to go against oath and cut off the perfectly healthy legs of several hundred people, and several hundred people willing to have their legs cut off and stay in a hostile environment till their bones could break from someone shaking their hand...
 
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haha T.Neo, all your counter-arguments are absolutely sound. My suggestion is a little tongue-in-cheek, but not totally without merit for a full-time micro-gravity community.
 
I assumed it was fully tongue-in-cheek. :shifty: :P

As I explained, you pretty much can't have a full-time microgravity community, because if you stay in microgravity for long enough, you die. It is really that simple, it's harsh but that sort of atropy is an unstoppable force (ironically caused by a lack of force). You also can't have children, or at the very least, can't have healthy children, because microgravity badly affects embryonic and fetal development.

It's easy to assume legs are totally useless in microgravity, but they aren't. They're just less useful than they are on the ground.

A good analogy might be cutting ears off babies, because we no longer have to listen for predators or prey, and ears are a redundant organ that could become infected/cancerous/etc...
 
No higher plants could survive there since they actually breathe oxygen like us (they only use CO2 for photosynthesis, which is basically a way to make "food" using energy from sunlight).


No accounting for evolution, huh? How disappointing...
 
So... you're saying that higher plants would somehow evolve a method to use something other than oxygen?

I'm not entirely sure, but I have a feeling that's about as plausible as humans evolving to breathe hydrogen sulfide...

The key would be to use something like cyanobacteria which doesn't require oxygen (I may be wrong, but they were at least able to evolve and thrive in the reducing atmosphere of the early Earth)...
 
The Earth had a reducing atmosphere at one time and life evolved in that.
 
So... you're saying that higher plants would somehow evolve a method to use something other than oxygen?
I'm not entirely sure, but I have a feeling that's about as plausible as humans evolving to breathe hydrogen sulfide...
The key would be to use something like cyanobacteria which doesn't require oxygen (I may be wrong, but they were at least able to evolve and thrive in the reducing atmosphere of the early Earth)...

Not sure if you read the link I posted earlier in this thread, but this is an interesting retort to your last point. And yes I know a tube worm isn't a human, but the point about life surviving where you think it ought not to, is clear:

"What surprised scientists was that there was an entire ecosystem, a community of diverse life forms, absolutely thriving in conditions that were previously thought to be inhospitable to any kind of life....

On the bottom of the ocean around deep-sea hydrothermal vents, there is a profusion of life that thrives on the hydrogen sulfide (H2S) gas released from the vents....

It turns out their insides are lined with bacteria that oxidize the H2S, turning it into usable nutrients for the worms. The bacteria, in turn, benefit from the relationship because the worms deliver blood-containing hemoglobin, which helps the bacteria to break down the sulfides.

Up until the discovery of these incredible bacteria (able to withstand the hottest temperatures of any other living thing on earth), scientists didn't believe it was possible for anything to survive in the extreme environment around deep ocean vents (extreme pressure, high temperature, no sunlight). "
 
That is not my point. Life adapted as such as to survive in such an environment have no qualms for existence, but it's rather implausible to suggest that a totally different organism, with a totally different metabolism, that has evolved in a totally different environment for hundreds of millions of years will suddenly drop everything and become anerobic.

Furthermore macroscopic life living in vent communities is actually aerobic, it's just that the autotrophs in the ecosystem use chemosynthesis for energy as opposed to photosynthesis using sunlight.

More recently I believe there has been evidence for anerobic macroscopic life, but that doesn't make humans re-evolving their entire metabolic system any more plausible.
 
That is not my point. Life adapted as such as to survive in such an environment have no qualms for existence, but it's rather implausible to suggest that a totally different organism, with a totally different metabolism, that has evolved in a totally different environment for hundreds of millions of years will suddenly drop everything and become anerobic.

Furthermore macroscopic life living in vent communities is actually aerobic, it's just that the autotrophs in the ecosystem use chemosynthesis for energy as opposed to photosynthesis using sunlight.

More recently I believe there has been evidence for anerobic macroscopic life, but that doesn't make humans re-evolving their entire metabolic system any more plausible.
Fair points of biology there, and to be honest I think I've lost track of what we're actually debating here lol. I'd agree about 're-evolving' but I thought the discussion was about life 'evolving' in an oxygen-less atmosphere. And the only point I was trying to make is it might be possible, as even here on earth we have creatures that 'break the established rules'.
 
Life already evolved here in an oxygen-less atmosphere... the original atmosphere of Earth actually had very little to no free oxygen, photosynthetic organisms changed this, and in the process actually created what was probably the largest mass extinction event in the Earth's history.

Keep in mind that the oxygen catastrophe happened some 2.4 billion years ago, long before even simple multicellular life- such as jellyfish or sponges- were in existence. It was strictly a microbial world, which would have been pretty boring- apart from the occasional bacterial slime.

As for advanced life being anerobic... well, it might be possible, but there are still chemical advantages to using oxygen. And it would be pretty hard to explain a habitable, living planet without any free oxygen or photosynthesis... it is such an advantageous life stratagy that it must be fairly common.

Unless of course, an equally advantageous life stratagy can be found by autotrophic organisms... probably something like a form of photosynthesis, that has different chemical by-products. If that is possible, it could well lead to a planet with a very chemically different atmosphere, and by extrapolation, any potential complex heterotrophic organisms there would respire/metabolise in a way that makes use of that particular atmospheric chemistry.
 
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plus it would be well to consider a more parochial version of the panspermia idea. Mars could have developed primitive life before the Earth did, it cooled faster. Sprites eject extremophiles and mars sends the heavier types to us, and we send the lighter types to Mars. of course even Venus may have had an ocean at one time as well.

Gawd, aren't extremophiles the dog's doo dahs, tough as old boots and too thick to show any fear. :cool:
 
Sprites ejecting extremophiles? :uhh:

I don't know about Mars cooling sooner, in this case it doesn't really matter.
 
Life already evolved here in an oxygen-less atmosphere... the original atmosphere of Earth actually had very little to no free oxygen, photosynthetic organisms changed this, and in the process actually created what was probably the largest mass extinction event in the Earth's history.

Keep in mind that the oxygen catastrophe happened some 2.4 billion years ago, long before even simple multicellular life- such as jellyfish or sponges- were in existence. It was strictly a microbial world, which would have been pretty boring- apart from the occasional bacterial slime.

As for advanced life being anerobic... well, it might be possible, but there are still chemical advantages to using oxygen. And it would be pretty hard to explain a habitable, living planet without any free oxygen or photosynthesis... it is such an advantageous life stratagy that it must be fairly common.

Unless of course, an equally advantageous life stratagy can be found by autotrophic organisms... probably something like a form of photosynthesis, that has different chemical by-products. If that is possible, it could well lead to a planet with a very chemically different atmosphere, and by extrapolation, any potential complex heterotrophic organisms there would respire/metabolise in a way that makes use of that particular atmospheric chemistry.

I learnt and agreed all in one post.
:thumbup:
 
As for advanced life being anerobic... well, it might be possible, but there are still chemical advantages to using oxygen. And it would be pretty hard to explain a habitable, living planet without any free oxygen or photosynthesis... it is such an advantageous life stratagy that it must be fairly common.

I think it would probably be unlikely from an evolutionary stand point. As you point out there is an advantage of using oxygen over anaerobic respiration. Although this may be sufficient for herbivorous animals, I don't think predators; not least intelligent life would evolve from that branch. They would simply be out done by their oxygen breathing cousins.

Unless of course, an equally advantageous life stratagy can be found by autotrophic organisms... probably something like a form of photosynthesis, that has different chemical by-products. If that is possible, it could well lead to a planet with a very chemically different atmosphere, and by extrapolation, any potential complex heterotrophic organisms there would respire/metabolise in a way that makes use of that particular atmospheric chemistry.

Problem is, is there one? I suppose it depends on the blend of elements and compounds at the beginning and mother nature is certainly good at finding solutions. But if there is water present, as there was on our planet, and therefore Oxygen I think that evolution would always take the more efficient route with Oxygen (eventually).
 
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