Malaysian airlines aircraft "shot down", SA-11 apparently

[Urwumpe]

My observations do not rule out a missile hit crippling the aircraft, but it sure doesn't look like the debris field of an aircraft that exploded in mid air to me.

A SAM does also not rip an aircraft into pieces. An extending rod warhead would cut through the plane, but the Buk-M1 missile uses a classic fragmentation warhead with a mass of 70 kg, that punches many small holes into an aircraft like a shotgun. It is usually not exploded on contact with the aircraft, but on radio command some short distance away from let the target fly directly into the cone of shrapnel for maximum effect.

It is possible that some pieces of the aircraft separated earlier, but generally, it should be a burning intact wreck in the air.

 

[vchamp]

They could boast the downed plane, thinking that it was Ukrainian military aircraft, but it does not mean that they shot him down.

It means exactly that. They said in the post that they shoot the plain down because it is "their sky".

 

[Odahs]

A SAM does also not rip an aircraft into pieces. An extending rod warhead would cut through the plane, but the Buk-M1 missile uses a classic fragmentation warhead with a mass of 70 kg, that punches many small holes into an aircraft like a shotgun. It is usually not exploded on contact with the aircraft, but on radio command some short distance away from let the target fly directly into the cone of shrapnel for maximum effect.

It is possible that some pieces of the aircraft separated earlier, but generally, it should be a burning intact wreck in the air.

Interesting, I've seen pictures of a surviving wing and and vertical stabiliser that show no shrapnel damage or pre-accident burning (or post accident burning). I'm just a little suspicious at this stage that the world may be caught up in a media frenzy. Sadly though it may be a case that the truth will be very difficult to determine, which does nothing for air safety or passenger confidence.

 

[Eraser]

It means exactly that. They said in the post that they shoot the plain down because it is "their sky".

Nope. Firstly separatists still have not united control and communication structure. They could boast about shot down a military plane, not waiting for the report from their own air defense units, but according to eyewitnesses. Secondly, numerous pro-rebels blogs and accounts in social networks are not directly related to the separatists, and often regurgitate rumors.

 

[Urwumpe]

Interesting, I've seen pictures of a surviving wing and and vertical stabiliser that show no shrapnel damage or pre-accident burning (or post accident burning). I'm just a little suspicious at this stage that the world may be caught up in a media frenzy. Sadly though it may be a case that the truth will be very difficult to determine, which does nothing for air safety or passenger confidence.

Does not mean much. A 777 is a very large plane, so such damage could be easily concentrated on other parts of the aircraft. Also, not everything must catch fire, but can still be totally damaged.

Just one example there, that damage was caused by a ten times smaller warhead, but it shows well how the damage would look like:

The plane landed intact, that makes it a good example to understand the damages before the lithobraking.

The damage is not many small perforations, but rather fuselage parts being ripped off in bigger heavy destroyed sheets.

A ten times bigger warhead has only about a 2 times bigger blast radius. Shrapnel will not fly faster, but you can produce more at a higher density.

And that's a test by a patriot missile (that's what you call a perfect hit there):

Similar size warhead of the same type (90 kg blast-fragmentation)

 

[SpaceEagle]

Cheeze n' Crackers

 

[vchamp]

Secondly, numerous pro-rebels blogs and accounts in social networks are not directly related to the separatists, and often regurgitate rumors.

But I was talking about russian military forces (I call it strictly) commander's blog, Strelkov's. Although it may be called a pro-rebel blog.

 

[boogabooga]

http://news.yahoo.com/aids-conference-attendees-downed-malaysian-jet-003927115.html

Great the plane was full of AIDS researchers. This couldn't get worse if it was a plane full of puppies. :facepalm:

 

[Eraser]

But I was talking about russian military forces (I call it strictly) commander's blog, Strelkov's. Although it may be called a pro-rebel blog.

Strelkov has no official blog or social network account.

 

[Urwumpe]

Strelkov has no official blog or social network account.

Wrong. He maintains one on VK, which has been considered authentic for quite some weeks now. Even terrorists need a social media strategy today.

 

[Eraser]

Wrong. He maintains one on VK, which has been considered authentic for quite some weeks now. Even terrorists need a social media strategy today.

Nope. According military analyst Denis Mokrushin, Strelkov has no relation to this VK account, and his only Internet activity is a forum of military re-enactors and collectors http://forum-antikvariat.ru/ and pro-rebel resource http://icorpus.ru/

 

[Urwumpe]

Nope. According military analyst Denis Mokrushin, Strelkov has no relation to this VK account, and his only Internet activity is a forum of military re-enactors and collectors http://forum-antikvariat.ru/ and pro-rebel resource http://icorpus.ru/

Sure that this is not outdated anymore? The VK account was pretty up-to-date, only a bit fantastic in the exaggerations.

 

[Eraser]

Sure that this is not outdated anymore? The VK account was pretty up-to-date, only a bit fantastic in the exaggerations.

Yes, 85% sure. More like Strelkov fan page.

 

[Odahs]

Does not mean much. A 777 is a very large plane, so such damage could be easily concentrated on other parts of the aircraft. Also, not everything must catch fire, but can still be totally damaged.

Just one example there, that damage was caused by a ten times smaller warhead, but it shows well how the damage would look like:

The plane landed intact, that makes it a good example to understand the damages before the lithobraking.

The damage is not many small perforations, but rather fuselage parts being ripped off in bigger heavy destroyed sheets.

A ten times bigger warhead has only about a 2 times bigger blast radius. Shrapnel will not fly faster, but you can produce more at a higher density.

And that's a test by a patriot missile (that's what you call a perfect hit there):

Similar size warhead of the same type (90 kg blast-fragmentation)

Yep I can accept this, it may only take damage to a single control surface or to the leading edge of one wing to make the aircraft totally uncontrollable. Uncomfortable by factual statements.

 

[Urwumpe]

Yep I can accept this, it may only take damage to a single control surface or to the leading edge of one wing to make the aircraft totally uncontrollable. Uncomfortable by factual statements.

Its a civilian aircraft and no A-10...

 

[kamaz]

As usual in such cases, this lady missed her flight. It may also mean that someone else got her seat.

 

[Quick_Nick]

Today's flight 17 has gone *far* south of Ukraine. It's still a mystery why Malaysia Airlines didn't join others in doing that already.

 

[Urwumpe]

Today's flight 17 has gone *far* south of Ukraine. It's still a mystery why Malaysia Airlines didn't join others in doing that already.

Lufthansa did fly over eastern Ukraine until yesterday without issues.

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausla...-karte-grafiken-route-flugroute-a-981784.html

And also:

https://twitter.com/driven_by_data/status/490173347700150272/photo/1

 

[Screamer7]

Regardless what happened, lives were lost.

And that will bring the total for the aviation industry to more than 500 people this year.
Not good at all.
My condolences to everyone affected by this tragedy.

 

[Urwumpe]

Since the accusation stands in the room by the Ukrainian government, one question to those who might know this better than me:

Is it possible to manipulate the contents of a blackbox beyond simply destroying the memory?