Updates NASA Commercial Crew Integrated Capability (CCiCap)

Interesting that SpaceX received less money than Boeing, despite having the better indicators in that final evaluation table. Looks likere there is some deficit in transparency in the decision process, despite pretending it.
 
Interesting that SpaceX received less money than Boeing, despite having the better indicators in that final evaluation table. Looks likere there is some deficit in transparency in the decision process, despite pretending it.

Comparatively speaking, it's not much of a difference. SpaceX got less because they already have a developed capsule and rocket that is both proven, that's the way I view it at least. I think they certainly made the best business pitch.
 

Wonder why the ATK Liberty design missed the boat, in spite of reasonably high economic effectiveness. Maybe a sense of too much chewing gum & band-aids involved in the design process to drive costs down? :lol:

Has there ever been any indication that NASA might rethink the SLS route for getting an HLV, and go with the SpaceX offer to build the FalconHeavy at 2.5 Billion instead? I thought that idea made a great deal of sense.
 
Has there ever been any indication that NASA might rethink the SLS route for getting an HLV, and go with the SpaceX offer to build the FalconHeavy at 2.5 Billion instead? I thought that idea made a great deal of sense.

As much as Elon Musk/SpaceX would like it, 50 metric tons to the LEO is definitley not enough to do the job the SLS should be doing.
Additionally, 5 engines + 2 boosters sounds far more reliable than 27 engines...
 
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Has there ever been any indication that NASA might rethink the SLS route for getting an HLV, and go with the SpaceX offer to build the Falcon Heavy at 2.5 Billion instead? I thought that idea made a great deal of sense.

The Falcon Heavy is going ahead under SpaceX's own funding. They expect to do a test launch in 2013. This rocket would have a 53 metric ton payload.
There was a separate proposal by SpaceX to create a 100+ mT payload heavy lift vehicle which they claimed would cost $2.5 billion to develop. NASA is not likely to buy that while the SLS is being developed. It is possible though if the SLS gets cancelled that NASA could buy it.


Bob Clark
 
The only event that could really cancel SLS, is NASA failing to develop it in such an epic way, that even senators would risk their next election, if they don't stop the program. After all, for about 80,000 tech jobs in the USA related to the SLS, you risk a few million more unemployment in other industries, if the program does not come to a successful conclusion, for example if federal funding gets out of hand by such programs. And all have the same right to vote...

SLS is a political program...don't just look at performance there.
 
As much as Elon Musk/SpaceX would like it, 50 metric tons to the LEO is definitley not enough to do the job the SLS should be doing.

It depends on just what job should be done. Some have made the case for exploration programs based on 20 ton-size payloads to LEO. It isn't just about asking for the biggest rocket possible.

Additionally, 5 engines + 2 boosters sounds far more reliable than 27 engines...

More to go wrong, but also more redundancy if something does go wrong. And also depends on what engines are being used, of course.
 
It depends on just what job should be done. Some have made the case for exploration programs based on 20 ton-size payloads to LEO. It isn't just about asking for the biggest rocket possible.

For me the things a HLV should do in the future are Moon/Mars landing missions and in the long run carrying payload for a permanent base there. To do this with a 50 metric tons rocket would be hardly possible in the old fashioned "One-shot", but only with orbital assembling/upper stages in an orbit to dock. Which solution is the better one is questionable (We had this discussion already elsewhere;)), but I think the HLV will win, simply because politicians want it: "Apollo was done this way, so why should we change it!" But we're in changing times with commercial spaceflight, maybe the next moon mission is not funded by politicians.

NOTE: I don't want to start this discussion again and if we really have to in the other thread


More to go wrong, but also more redundancy if something does go wrong. And also depends on what engines are being used, of course.

Frankly, engine failures at liftoff are quite uncommon, so the probability that something fails at that phase is not that high with 5/7 engines. I can't even remember an engine failure of an (American, I can't remember all Russian missions:uhh:) manned launch except for the Pogo oscillations in the Saturn V and STS-51F's sensor failures, which are both not really engine failures afaik. So while a failure with that number of engines is quite uncommon, it's much more possible with four-times more engines. But the real question in that matter is: Can you safely switch of one engine or will one failure blow up the whole stack.
About redundancy: Redundancy might be there somewhat in the flight, but if I have a problem in the first few seconds your moon mission will make an Newton's apple reenactment, guess how wonderful that would be in the current funding situation of NASA.
 
NOTE: I don't want to start this discussion again and if we really have to in the other thread

Yeah, it is really needed it seems. :tiphat:

Frankly, engine failures at liftoff are quite uncommon, so the probability that something fails at that phase is not that high with 5/7 engines. I can't even remember an engine failure of an (American, I can't remember all Russian missions:uhh:) manned launch except for the Pogo oscillations in the Saturn V and STS-51F's sensor failures, which are both not really engine failures afaik.

First of all, engine sensor failures are engine failures. If you ignore them, it can lead to explosion, just like any structural or mechanic failure. RSLS aborts of the Shuttle are also important, because, while you are right, they are not happening in flight, the chance for such an abort increases of course, if you have more engines that are tested.

Next, a Progress launch lately failed because of an engine failure, a rocket that is identical to the one used for manned launches. Similar, a Foton-M launch of a ESA mission crashed and exploded because of a foreign object in the booster engine turbopump. One Soyuz mission aborted on the pad because of a foreign object in the engine turbopump resulting in fire and explosion. The April 5 anomaly of a manned soyuz flight was caused by a faulty staging, so no engine failure.

Also, additionally to the RSLS aborts, you also had sudden engine aborts on at least one Shuttle flight, because the fuel ran out. Also related to the propulsion system. STS-51L failed because of a solid rocket motor failure.

So yes, the N-1 syndrome is still existing and possible. You need much more sensible stage testing for such large rockets with many engines as for a similar large stage with fewer engines.
 
But the real question in that matter is: Can you safely switch of one engine or will one failure blow up the whole stack.

Both possible and performed historically many times. Not all engine failures are catastrophic. Redundancy increases the probability of a catastrophic engine failure, but decreases the probability of a launch failure due to a non-catastrophic failure. The question, of course, is what percentage of engine failures are catastrophic ('catastrophic' defined as a failure that endangers the rest of the vehicle).

On a vehicle without engine-out capability, any post-liftoff engine failure, regardless of mechanical severity, will prevent a successful launch.

About redundancy: Redundancy might be there somewhat in the flight, but if I have a problem in the first few seconds your moon mission will make an Newton's apple reenactment, guess how wonderful that would be in the current funding situation of NASA.

No, engine-out is not feasible until after a specific point in the launch (this varies from vehicle to vehicle and presumably depends on T/W and the level of redundancy). But it is indeed feasible beyond this point, and can increase overall vehicle reliability.

Furthermore an argument against a design based on the presupposed ramifications to NASA's funding state or public support for spaceflight, is not a terribly convincing technical argument- it could be applied to any vehicle.

And of course, in the case of manned missions, the possibility of failure in any vehicle is why a LAS is a safety essential.
 
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This is interesting because both Boeing and SpaceX are also planning to use the pusher type escape system and it appears Blue Origin was able to test it first.
But that was in Blue Origin's CCDev2 milestones, and not in SpaceX's nor Boeing's. SpaceX and Boeing just started their CCiCap.
 
But that was in Blue Origin's CCDev2 milestones, and not in SpaceX's nor Boeing's. SpaceX and Boeing just started their CCiCap.

OK. I didn't know that. I was just surprised Blue Origin is considered the little sister of the group so I was surprised it made this advance before the big boys.

Bob Clark
 
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