Hardware New Hardware

[FADEC]

I'm going to replace my 5 years old harware within the next 3 weeks. I'll abandon Intel and return to AMD due to the better price-performance ratio of AMD CPUs.

2 variants are possible (financially). Each one is supposed to be a gaming system, basically for games like Guild Wars 2 and Microsoft Flight Simulator X (especially for the PMDG 737 NGX and the upcoming PMDG Triple Seven). Each variant will contain the same RAM (8GB-Kit Corsair Vengeance blue PC3-12800U CL9 (1600 Low Voltage)) and videocard (Asus GeForce GTX 660, 2048MB DDR5), as well as my current hard drives (SATA, Maxtor), case and PSU (both Thermaltake). The CPU fan will be a Thermaltake Contact 21.


Variant 1

Motherboard: Asus M5A97 R2.0, AM3+, ATX http://www.asus.com/Motherboards/AMD_AM3Plus/M5A97_R20/
CPU: AMD Phenom II X4 965 Black Edition (4 x 3.4 GHz)

Costs: 160.88 € / 208.73 USD


Variant 2

Motherboard: Asus M5A99FX PRO R2.0, ATX, AM3+ http://www.asus.com/Motherboards/AMD_AM3Plus/M5A99FX_PRO_R20/
CPU: AMD FX-4170 (4 x 4.2 GHz)

Costs: 241.01 € / 312.69 USD


Variant 1 is significantly cheaper, but based on older hardware. While variant 2 is relatively up to date and offers upgrade compatibilies for future AMD FX CPUs due to the 990FX chipset. But for now anything above 4 cores is useless for gaming / flight simulation.

Do you think the performance difference of the two variants is noticeable enough in order to justify the higher costs? And what do you think would be the impact to MS FSX? Would variant 1 enable to run it with max settings? Or would variant 2 not even allow to run MS FSX with max settings?

Thanks in advance for any suggestion!

 

[Capt_hensley]

Did you get the MB? Asus is a solid system board. These are cheap compared to what I've been looking at.

I'm thinking of this system:
http://www.microcenter.com/product/388813/G213_Desktop_Computer

But I wonder if orbiter will like it OK.
Comments welcome.

 

[Urwumpe]

Orbiter should be fine. My own ideal orbiter setup goes into the same direction, but I plan for a better GPU, not that orbiter needs it currently.

 

[Capt_hensley]

Orbiter should be fine. My own ideal orbiter setup goes into the same direction, but I plan for a better GPU, not that orbiter needs it currently.

Well I'd like to think orbiter won't need it, but since there are two of the 550 TI GPUs, and that they can be SLI together, that it would be enough power to get a decent frame rate.

Currently I have three of these ATI HD 4850

Once crossfire is enabled I get 1.5gb and three GPUs chunking away, my worst rate was 0.23fps, and my best was 120fps, with shuttle fleet and ISS 4.5 loaded I average about 50fps D3D9 client.

Thanks, still waiting to here fro FADEC

 

[FADEC]

I did not get any new hardware yet. I had to postpone the project due to a collarbone fracture. I might be able to use both hands again in about three weeks from now. My current plan is to order the hardware in mid november.

Meanwhile my decision is Asus M5A97 R2.0 + AMD Phenom II X4 965 Black Edition. I read that the AMD FX-4170 isn't really faster. I have no doubt that Orbiter will run perfectly on that system. My only concern is FSX. But I think it will run relatively fine.

As far as your system is concerned @ Capt_hensley, I think it will run almost everything Orbiter is anything but a challange for a i7 CPU.

 

[Ripley]

Ouch! Get well soon!

 

[Capt_hensley]

I had to postpone the project due to a collarbone fracture....
As far as your system is concerned @ Capt_hensley, I think it will run almost everything Orbiter is anything but a challange for a i7 CPU.

Hope everything is well with your fracture, take it easy, I've heard the ghost of the pain can last a lifetime, Hope that's not your case.

Thanks, Orbiter seems to be OK, Frame rates are slightly higher on average. The 3DS Max 2013 objects I'm working on are working well, but when a raw mesh starts out with over a million polys and the file size is passing 100 meg, I couldn't do anything without a SSD. Even the fastest SATA drive can't keep up with the 512gb SSD I bought. I have yet to use more than 60% of the ram in the box, but the GPUs are regularly caching with maxed out memory useage. I think there are serious performance issues within the max program, they have issued 6 patch sets, and are projecting another within a month.

I think you'll be fine with your new box, it's impressive as well.

 

[Screamer7]

Hi Fadec,
Just a reminder that AMD FX and PHENOM CPU's are not energy effecient as the new Ivy bridge CPU's. Ivy bridge use about 50% less power than a FX CPU.

I hope you get better soon.
I also fractured my collarbone when at school. (Rugby match) It was a weird feeling. I could not used my arm at all.

 

[Hielor]

FSX will run better on variant 2--the higher clock speed is really all that FSX cares about.

 

[FADEC]

Ouch! Get well soon!

Thanks.

Hope everything is well with your fracture, take it easy, I've heard the ghost of the pain can last a lifetime, Hope that's not your case.

I also heard and read nasty things. But none of them don't happen in my case for now luckily. There is no malposition of my shoulder and collarbone. And the "step", caused by the fracture, already is going to become more difficult to feel out while from the outside it doesn't look like it's broken.

However, my fracture (completely broken; not just slightly broken) took place near the shoulder joint i.e. not in the middle of the collarbone. Such collarbone fractures represent only 15% of all collarbone fractures (80% take place in the middle of the collarbone). This kind of collarbone fracture statistically has the highest chance for non-union. But I'm an optimist. It's been two and a half weeks now since the accident (bike). And I already feel relatively fine. It feels like the fracture already is going to grow together. Lateral movements of the collarbone (by moving the shoulder) are already possible. But only very slightly and carefully. Vertical movements are not yet possible though. The Shoulder moves up, but the collarbone doesn't.

I have to wear my bandage for about 6 weeks all in all. Let's see how it looks afterwards...

Thanks, Orbiter seems to be OK, Frame rates are slightly higher on average. The 3DS Max 2013 objects I'm working on are working well, but when a raw mesh starts out with over a million polys and the file size is passing 100 meg, I couldn't do anything without a SSD. Even the fastest SATA drive can't keep up with the 512gb SSD I bought. I have yet to use more than 60% of the ram in the box, but the GPUs are regularly caching with maxed out memory useage. I think there are serious performance issues within the max program, they have issued 6 patch sets, and are projecting another within a month.

I never worked with 3DS Max. My experiments are limited to Anim8or. But I managed to design my own rocket (two stages and a capsule + service module on top). I always wanted to turn it into an Orbiter addon. But never had enough time.

I think you'll be fine with your new box, it's impressive as well.

Not as impressive as your Intel-based system. But AMD still offers a good price-performance ratio for people with small pockets I think.

Hi Fadec,
Just a reminder that AMD FX and PHENOM CPU's are not energy effecient as the new Ivy bridge CPU's. Ivy bridge use about 50% less power than a FX CPU.

I know. If I could I would buy the latest i7, or at least a good i5, and a high-end Asus board. But my pocket sadly doesn't allow me to do so.

I think AMD still is nice when taking its prices into account.

I hope you get better soon.

Thanks.

I also fractured my collarbone when at school. (Rugby match) It was a weird feeling. I could not used my arm at all.

Same here. I won't be able to use my (right) arm for at least 6 weeks. But I can use the hand carefully.

FSX will run better on variant 2--the higher clock speed is really all that FSX cares about.

Are you sure? People claim that the FX 4170 isn't better than the Phenom II X4. But I don't understand it anyway. The FX has 800 MHz more per core. So actually it must be faster. I also don't understand why people always say that Intel is faster, even if it has less MHz in some cases.

If it really makes a noticable difference, I will buy the FX. It's actually terrible that FSX needs so much resources still many years after it's release. I've heard that even the fastest i7 won't run FSX at max settings in combination with certain scenery and caircraft addons installed.

 

[Screamer7]

I think AMD still is nice when taking its prices into account.

True.

The FX has 800 MHz more per core.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/fx-4170-core-i3-3220-benchmarks,3314.html

Remember that MHz is not anymore the way to look at a CPU. It is nowadays about efficiency.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/fx-8350-vishera-review,3328.html

 

[FADEC]

I think AMD still is nice when taking its prices into account.

True.

The FX has 800 MHz more per core.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/fx-4170-core-i3-3220-benchmarks,3314.html

Remember that MHz is not anymore the way to look at a CPU. It is nowadays about efficiency.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/fx-8350-vishera-review,3328.html

Thanks. I'll have a look...

 

[Hielor]

FSX was designed and built in an era before multicore processors became the norm. At the time it wads made, CPUs were getting faster at an insane rate, so FSX was written to expect that. But then speeds hit a brick wall and multiple cores became the thing, and FSX performance stagnated.

Even though more modern games may perform better on the slower chip, I'd wager that FSX would do better on the faster one.

That said, you can probably overclock the phenom to 3.8 or 4 pretty easily, and since money is your primary consideration, the phenom will probably be fine.

 

[Capt_hensley]

Take care anyway, and I'm glad you're already feeling better. 6 Weeks should be a breeze. Best of luck

PS 3DS Max is wicked cool for doing everything you need in meshes, but we all know the magic is in the coding of the vessel. This I still need lots of practice at. The station is a long way from its potential. right now it's just a floating piece of hardware and not much more.

 

[FADEC]

Thanks for all the information

Yesterday I was completely confused after reading the articles posted by Screamer7. I didn't know whether to buy an Intel or AMD CPU. But the hint from Hielor and further research finally gave me a "go" for the Phenom II X4 965 Black Edition.

I will overclock it to 4 GHz. It's obviously possible without any issues. The temperature doesn't increase beyond 65° C, provided you have a good cooler.

I think the Arctic Freezer xtreme will provide enough cooling:

So this is my final decision. Phenom II X4 965 Black Edition. But I will buy a different Mainboard. I know that Asrock was controversial for quite some time. But nowadays they offer nice middle class manboards on the cheap.

http://www.asrock.com/mb/AMD/970 Extreme3/

It also fits to my case optically:

 

[Hielor]

I have an ASRock mobo from three years ago, and it's completely unable to overclock the CPU that's in it. Apparently they fixed the issue in a later hardware revision, but that didn't help me.
Maybe check out overclockersclub.com to see if they have reviews of motherboards for that CPU specific to overclocking ability.

 

[Urwumpe]

About the CPU cooler: Better check first, if you can, if the cooler fits into the case. I have a lot of really bad karma because of that. While the cooler does fit into the case by ATX standards, they often do not like removing the mainboard by pulling out the whole tray - they had been often a few mm to high for that.

The result was surgery in the cramped space between power supply and CPU. Me, my tools, magnifying glasses and a headlight. I still need to get hands on a cheap endoscope.

 

[Screamer7]

The FX Bulldoser cpu's are not really worth it. I think (sadly) that AMD screw up on this.
The Phenom chip is really a good choice moneywise.

 

[FADEC]

I have an ASRock mobo from three years ago, and it's completely unable to overclock the CPU that's in it. Apparently they fixed the issue in a later hardware revision, but that didn't help me.
Maybe check out overclockersclub.com to see if they have reviews of motherboards for that CPU specific to overclocking ability.

I didn't find a review of the Asrock 970 Extreme 3. But I found a review of the Phenom II X4 965. There are no cons listed, only pros (especially overclocking capability). It seems that the Phenom II X4 still is one of the best AMD CPU's.

The Asrock 970 Extreme 3 offers overclocking and core unlocking capabilities. And since this board obviously became famous amongst gamers, I will give it a try. The BIOS menu looks like it's a solid board for that price.

Only 155 € / 200 USD for the board and the quadcore is unbeatable I think. Especially if overclocking works that flawlessly. You won't even get an i7 for for 155 €.

---------- Post added at 08:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:08 PM ----------

About the CPU cooler: Better check first, if you can, if the cooler fits into the case. I have a lot of really bad karma because of that. While the cooler does fit into the case by ATX standards, they often do not like removing the mainboard by pulling out the whole tray - they had been often a few mm to high for that.

The result was surgery in the cramped space between power supply and CPU. Me, my tools, magnifying glasses and a headlight. I still need to get hands on a cheap endoscope.

Ouch

I think it will fit perfectly in my case. My Thermaltake case is quite big. That's my current cooler:

And there is still more than plenty of room in the case.

 

[FADEC]

Well... after almost two weeks of headache, caused by too much thinking again, I changed my buying decision.

I reviewed various possible hardware combinations, mixing Asrock, Asus und MSI boards with AMD and Intel CPU's. Then I ended up reviewing benchmarks. And I noticed that the cheapest Intel based system is cheaper than an AMD Phenom II X4 based system, while offering as much as, and even slightly more power as Phenom II and FX CPU's. Depending on the game of course.

It's the Pentium G860, with only 2x3 GHz, which beats most, and in certain cases even any AMD CPU. And it's not even based on Ivy Bridge (it's Sandy Bridge). It costs only 60 Euro / 75 USD.

A few benchmark results:

End of the story is that AMD actually is not recommendable for gaming anymore.

So I will buy the Intel Pentium G860, and the ASUS P8H61 PRO REV 3.0:

CPU cooler will be Thermaltake Contac 30:

This system is cheaper as the Phenom II X4 system I chosed before, while offering the same, and partly even more power (and quality hardware). It will be the basis for my planned upgrade next summer: either i5 2500k or maybe even an i7.