OFMM General Discussions Archive

[PhantomCruiser]

Nah, they wouldn't really be RCS thrusters... I'm just saying that they would probably behave like them.
And you're 100% correct in saying this thing would go nowhere fast. In the book they used them to wander around and seed these little windmill heater things.
I had a fleeting thought of it working like a UGCO car, only with the mesh at 400-500 meters, it could just kind of wander around aimlessly.
I'm not sure flying one around would be much fun, but it'd give some dynamic to the scenery off on it's own.

 

[Ark]

Building an interplanetary stack seems a lot more conducive to this kind of group project.

Still seems flawed, though, everyone would contribute to building the thing but only a couple of people would actually get to fly it somewhere.

 

[supersonic]

I know I would like to see an Arrow, as a mother ship, DGIVs and XR2s as landers and XR5s as cargo freighter.

 

[Izack]

I say we should use a stack, but perhaps not launch and assemble the whole thing in orbit ourselves. If we did that, it would be like another OFSS, and would take longer than the Mars voyage itself. Instead, maybe 'start' with it already partially built, or even just use a preexisting vessel, like the Mars 1994 addon or, as Phantomcruiser mentioned the James Cook.
Essentially, "let's not and say we did."
Also, Ark has a valid point. If more than one or two people are going to have fun, there should be more than one flight. The first JC (if we use that) could bring parts for a station in orbit (then we can still have orbital construction involved), as it's one thing to go to Mars and quite another to actually land on it. Once we have that foothold, it will be a whole lot easier to bring in supplies (the larger ships can ferry supplies to the station, and smaller landers can bring them down. I don't like the idea of landing and launching an Arrow or XR-5 every time we need supplies, for fuel cost reasons.)
Then come the first landings, first surface base, and then the polar outposts, balloons, science experiments, et cetera.

That's just my two cents. :tiphat:

 

[Bj]

From what I am gathering so far;

Vessels;

• Arrow
• (XR2||DGIV)
• Ares launchers
• Some fabricated (ISS like) vessel that will be transport/crew type ship
• Other Launchers

Goal of Project;

• Establish colony for
  • Science Experiments
  • Mining

*did not include transforming because of opposition



Using said ideas, scenario line is this;

NASA through MER found valuable resources on the Martian surface, (say cesium?($30/g)) so an expedition will go there and mine for resources.

Mars although has a very small atmosphere, still has weather which means equipment will have wear and tear and need some maintenance. Obviously this would be very bad if the landing ships have dirt stuck in the landing gear so the landing party vessels (XR2/DGIV) will only stay on the planet for a maximum of a few days.

Orbiting Mars will be the fabricated space station where it will be considered the 'hangar' and have long duration stay for the vessels and transports. This vessel needs to have a large habitual area and needs large storage spaces for UCGO cargo, other cargo and fuel.

Seeing how it would take a very long time for the Arrow to be built (since we also don't have the individual parts), let us assume that our good friends from Dan Inc. gave us a break and built us a nice Arrow for our use (though he requests that he gets to be the first man to step foot on Mars ). Realistically the Arrow cannot take off from Earth (and Mars?) so we will use the ISS and space station around Mars as the Arrows 'harbor.'

Since the Arrow takes a huge amount of fuel, and if we are being realistic, we need to feed this pig, rather than using scenario editor. Assuming LOX/LH2 is the primary fuel, we can manufacture that on Mars and use it to fuel the Arrow (I am hoping the Arrow takes off (full load) from Mars on realistic settings)

General mission line;

1. Start construction of Mars space station (MSS)
   1. Develop modules so that Arrow can dock with station. (or the alternative, design the MSS to be narrow enough to dock within Arrows bay.
2. Supply Arrow (which is orbiting) with cargo via launchers
3. Send the Arrow on its way to Mars, with the capabilities of manufacturing its own fuel.
4. Load up the additional XR2s and/or DGIVs with the MSS and send it on its way to Mars.
5. Arrow arrives, (Arrow's XR2/DGIV stays in orbit) land Arrow on the designated landing site. Deploys rovers and crew. They start setting up camp and processing facilities for making fuel. (which ultimately can turn into a UCGO gas station or we can be even more realistic and make a vessel with a huge amount of fuel reserves that adds fuel to the tanks as time goes by but that's debatable)
6. MSS arrives, placed into stable lowish inclination orbit. XR2 & DGIVs that are attached start bringing down loads of cargo.
7. Mining begins. XR2/DGIV hauls it up to Arrow/MSS as they are dropping off cargo.
8. Arrow drops off as much fuel as it can spare to MSS and heads to Earth.
9. Back on Earth, launches are made for any additional cargo needed for mining or scientific experiments. The cargo is linked together so that they are not freely floating in space. Vehicles are also in place to bring back cargo to Earth.
10. Arrow gets loaded up and sent back
11. Vehicles lower down Arrow's cargo
12. Repeat

All in all, a very long many pilot/crew intensive project. Cannot imagine there would be enough resources on Mars worth all the vehicles and paychecks :lol:

Anyway, thoughts/comments?

 

[Izack]

I have a few problems with this plan, most of which involve the Arrow.

1. It's unnecessarily large, and carries very little cargo/personnel for its size (which is 470m, I believe). (those tiny exterior cargo racks in the middle look almost funny...40 little boxes maximum load for such a positively enormous vessel)
2. It's too futuristic. It's 3 steps away from Star Wars.

I was originally inclined to support the Arrow, but after giving some hard thought to the matter I believe an interplanetary stack with equipment to build the MSS is the way to go, at least for the first phase of the operation. Perhaps once it has built the station, the Arrow can be launched.

I really have to support the James Cook for this job. It can carry two landers, as well as the station building supplies and tugs to build it without being too enormous (like the Deepstar or Descartes.)
I'd say two journeys to establish a foothold: one for the MSS and two initial landings (At Juventae Chasma and Olympus Mons, perhaps?), and one to bring two heavy landers and parts for a permanent base.

The second voyage could be where the Arrow comes in (it's a base in its own right and can land on the surface by itself, no landers needed.)

For the initial historic landings, we'd obviously use XR-2s or DG-IVs (Not quite unrealistic if we use realistic settings.) Since both of these craft can take off themselves, after a few days on the surface they can head back up for rendezvous at the MSS and await the arrival of Expedition Two in whatever form it takes. If the Arrow is used for the second, then we have a spaceworthy vessel already at Mars doing nothing, so why not send it to Phobos while we wait? It can also act as the emergency return vehicle in case of, well, and emergency.

Now that I've said that, the Arrow looks like the ideal way to go for the second voyage. Oh, how fickle I am. :lol:

 

[Bj]

I have a few problems with this plan, most of which involve the Arrow.

1. It's unnecessarily large, and carries very little cargo/personnel for its size (which is 470m, I believe). (those tiny exterior cargo racks in the middle look almost funny...40 little boxes maximum load for such a positively enormous vessel)
2. It's too futuristic. It's 3 steps away from Star Wars.

It is large because it has to carry all that fuel and O2 ... And it has all that room for all that crew.

I was originally inclined to support the Arrow, but after giving some hard thought to the matter I believe an interplanetary stack with equipment to build the MSS is the way to go, at least for the first phase of the operation. Perhaps once it has built the station, the Arrow can be launched.

I really have to support the James Cook for this job. It can carry two landers, as well as the station building supplies and tugs to build it without being too enormous (like the Deepstar or Descartes.)
I'd say two journeys to establish a foothold: one for the MSS and two initial landings (At Juventae Chasma and Olympus Mons, perhaps?), and one to bring two heavy landers and parts for a permanent base.
...

As far as realism goes, how many magnetoplasmadynamic thrusters do you know in current operation on SSTO vessels?

But yes the Cook vessel would be a good candidate as well. It would also make a good platform to haul the MSS over to Mars. (rather than attatching a large booster rocket to the MSS.

 

[supersonic]

The Arrow would probably work for a second orbital space station for part time, and the other times it will freight cargo to Mars from Earth.

 

[Bj]

Alright alterations colored;

Vessels;

• Cargo vessel - Arrow
• MSS station platform (engines to push MSS to Mars) - James Cook
• Mini landers - (XR2||DGIV)
• Ares launchers
• Some fabricated (ISS like) vessel that will be transport/crew type ship (MSS)
• Other Launchers

Goal of Project;

• Establish colony for
  • Science Experiments
  • Mining

General mission line;

1. Start construction of Mars space station (MSS)
   1. Develop modules so that Arrow can dock with station. (or the alternative, design the MSS to be narrow enough to dock within Arrows bay.
2. Supply Arrow (which is orbiting) with cargo via launchers
3. Send the Arrow on its way to Mars, with the capabilities of manufacturing its own fuel.
4. Load up the additional XR2s and/or DGIVs with the MSS/Cook and send it on its way to Mars.
5. Arrow arrives, (Arrow's XR2/DGIV stays in orbit) land Arrow on the designated landing site. Deploys rovers and crew. They start setting up camp and processing facilities for making fuel. (which ultimately can turn into a UCGO gas station or we can be even more realistic and make a vessel with a huge amount of fuel reserves that adds fuel to the tanks as time goes by but that's debatable)
6. Cook/MSS arrives, placed into stable lowish inclination orbit. XR2 & DGIVs that are attached start bringing down loads of cargo.
7. Mining begins. XR2/DGIV hauls it up to Arrow/MSS/Cook as they are dropping off cargo.
8. Arrow drops off as much fuel as it can spare to MSS and heads to Earth.
9. Back on Earth, launches are made for any additional cargo needed for mining or scientific experiments. The cargo is linked together so that they are not freely floating in space. Vehicles are also in place to bring back cargo to Earth.
10. Arrow gets loaded up and sent back
11. Vehicles lower down Arrow's cargo
12. Repeat

All in all, really unchanged, other than the James Cook vessel is the actual platform to bring the MSS over.

40 little boxes maximum load for such a positively enormous vessel)

I was thinking 40 would be too much, after-all how big is this outpost going to be anyway?

 

[Izack]

You make a good point. Don't mind me! :blahblah:
About the boxes, all I meant was that it was a measly maximum payload for a half-kilometer long vessel.

Anyway...

I toyed around with an exploration stack based on the Cook, and this is what I came up with.
(Just a couple of default modules, Solar Service Modules and Dragonflies, as well as two default deltagliders (because the scenario had them anyway and this is just a demonstration.)
Fuel tanks would be necessary for the station (which I did not add, oops), and two of the hab modules seen in the second image would be storage space. Also, two Dragonflies is a little unnecessary. What do you guys think?

 

[PhantomCruiser]

I agree, 1 dragonfly should be adequate. I'm not a big fan of them myself, I'd prefer to have a station module set up as a "core" with a URMS mounted on it. It makes for a much quicker construction.
But, part of the challange could muscling modules around with that dragonfly...

 

[Bj]

You make a good point. Don't mind me! :tiphat:
About the boxes, all I meant was that it was a measly maximum payload for a half-kilometer long vessel.

Anyway...

I toyed around with an exploration stack based on the Cook, and this is what I came up with.
(Just a couple of default modules, Solar Service Modules and Dragonflies, as well as two default deltagliders (because the scenario had them anyway and this is just a demonstration.)
Fuel tanks would be necessary for the station (which I did not add, oops), and two of the hab modules seen in the second image would be storage space. Also, two Dragonflies is a little unnecessary. What do you guys think?

2 Dragons, most definitely wast of space

1 dragon is fine if it is needed, though I don't think it would be.

I found a problem, Arrow (under default settings) will not take off from Mars. So we can either, adjust config, or alter plan.

is [nomedia="http://www.orbithangar.com/searchid.php?ID=3105"]Jumbo Tanker v1.0[/nomedia] adequate?

---------- Post added at 08:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:58 PM ----------

But, part of the challange could muscling modules around with that dragonfly...

If we have to rearrange stuff like the ISS does then we might need one or at least the RMS

 

[Izack]

I would use the Jumbo tanker, but I consistently get a CTD when I try to put it in the scenario via the editor. Also, it looks sort of, you know, large. I'm worried about the stack's center of mass. I was using Dragonflies because they could also do station-keeping to an extent, as well as construction. However, it seems that the two service modules are enough for that, and there are two deltagliders (XR-2s or DG-IVs later) anyway. So, here is a rearranged stack.

As for the Arrow, that hurts...But thanks for testing that now, and not waiting until we were already there! That could have been bad! :lol:
How much fuel did you have when you attempted to take off? It may be possible to get away with a lighter fuel tank and no cargo, I hope.

EDIT: Added a URMS to the station.

 

[Bj]

I would use the Jumbo tanker, but I consistently get a CTD when I try to put it in the scenario via the editor. Also, it looks sort of, you know, large. I'm worried about the stack's center of mass. I was using Dragonflies because they could also do station-keeping to an extent, as well as construction. However, it seems that the two service modules are enough for that, and there are two deltagliders (XR-2s or DG-IVs later) anyway. So, here is a rearranged stack.

As for the Arrow, that hurts...But thanks for testing that now, and not waiting until we were already there! That could have been bad! :lol:
How much fuel did you have when you attempted to take off? It may be possible to get away with a lighter fuel tank and no cargo, I hope.

Yes I tried lowering the fuel onboard the Arrow, down to zip. still nothing.

Where did you get those fuel modules? While those look good, how about this one? (slightly bigger so higher fuel/drymass ratio)
[nomedia="http://www.orbithangar.com/searchid.php?ID=2650"]simple tank payload 2.5[/nomedia]

 

[Izack]

Those are from kulch's Space Tankers addon.
The tank you just posted looks like it may be more suitable, though.

(Note the arm I added to the previous post.)

Now to replace those deltagliders with Ravenstars to get some initial quotes on framerate as well as Cook's performance. (Ravenstars because they're heavier on the framerate than DG-IVs)

About the Arrow, I think it will have to have its hover thrusters "overhauled" (edited), unless maybe we could use an XR-5? I'd rather avoid the XR-5 for this one, though.

 

[Pablo49]

Could we use something like Vessel Stack to make the interplanetary stack/MSS? Possibly use Nerva 2 for the engines. (I've never used Vessel Stack, so I'm unsure of it's abilities.) This would eliminate having a separate vessel moving MSS to Mars orbit.

 

[Bj]

Could we use something like Vessel Stack to make the interplanetary stack/MSS? Possibly use Nerva 2 for the engines. (I've never used Vessel Stack, so I'm unsure of it's abilities.) This would eliminate having a separate vessel moving MSS to Mars orbit.

Never have used Vessel Stack to tell you the truth, but if we don't use the Cook as our engines, then we would need something like the Nerva.

About the Arrow, I think it will have to have its hover thrusters "overhauled"

I am guessing so, either that or we lug down all 40x cargo (what 4 at a time?) with an XR2/DGIV. Or.... we develop some kind of heat shield platform similar to [nomedia="http://www.orbithangar.com/searchid.php?ID=3732"]UMmu reentry pack[/nomedia] Only it will hold 40x cargo. I wonder how difficult it would be to 'parashoot' it in. :shrug:

 

[Izack]

Vessel Stack seems quite confusing to use (there are no instructions whatsoever) and a little buggy, but doable if someone can figure it out. I wasn't aware of it before, but if it works it could save some trouble.

My only other qualm is that it's at least one less thing to do when we get there (build the station).
If we're going to build a stack from scratch though, this would definitely be worth looking at.

---------- Post added at 04:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:32 AM ----------

I am guessing so, either that or we lug down all 40x cargo (what 4 at a time?) with an XR2/DGIV. Or.... we develop some kind of heat shield platform similar to UMmu reentry pack Only it will hold 40x cargo. I wonder how difficult it would be to 'parashoot' it in. :shrug:

One great big Paracone. That's a good idea, actually. So long as it's just cargo in there, strapping it to a shield and dropping it in's not so bad at all. Not entirely safe if we're relying on that shipment for the astronauts' survival, though. (And that could be US if we're doing the UMmu thing :lol

 

[Bj]

If we're going to build a stack from scratch though, this would definitely be worth looking at.

what you mean vessel stack?
[nomedia="http://www.orbithangar.com/searchid.php?ID=3819"]Vessel Stack[/nomedia]

Vessel Stack allows you to bind multiple vessels as one super structure and control them as a single spaceship

yeah pretty much it is for controlling the thrusters on independent vessels collectively. Not really for 'binding' them together. Which is exactly what docking does. Thus-far, I really don't see the necessity for it.

One great big Paracone. That's a good idea, actually. So long as it's just cargo in there, strapping it to a shield and dropping it in's not so bad at all. Not entirely safe if we're relying on that shipment for the astronauts' survival, though. (And that could be US if we're doing the UMmu thing :lol

Yeah cargo only. :thumbup: XR2/DGIV for landing crew.

 

[Izack]

I'm not saying it's necessary, only that it could be useful for controlling the vessel once it's built.
And that's only if someone wants to go figure it out without a manual.