Orbiter being sold at amazon :-(

[Alexw95]

sigh... they even used the screen shots off martins website

 

[Tommy]

In the meantime, all it takes is for one of us who is an Amazon consumer (thus able to post reviews) to write a couple of lines in the reviews. How much time does that take? 10 seconds? Don't have to like what I say, just do it.

You missed the point. You have to purchase that specific product before you can post a review. If you'ld care to waste your 10 pounds (plus shipping) don't let me stop you. If you've bought ANYTHING from this seller you can post a "vendor review".

The real villian here is Butterfly Media. I would suggest that some English citizen (Martin would be best since he is the owner of infringed material) to press charges against them. However, that may involve hiring a lawyer (or whatever they call them in the UK) which is quite expensive - and chances are not really worth it since all that's likely to happen is a slap on the wrist. A small fine - but no jail time for the guilty.

 

[squeaky024]

I believe this "Butterly Media" is stealing other games too, such as that submarine sim, which looks dangerously similar to another open source game. (found in the discussion area)

 

[Carmen A]

Well you are right of course - I'm hoping someone "who is already an Amazon customer" (as posted above) would kindly post the necessary review

As for "justice" - internet "justice" is mainly still accomplished by vigilante action

 

[Yoda]

I just posted a review on the product on Amazon notifying people that this is a free downloadable product belonging to Martin Schweiger versus this scam artist.

Amazon is supposed to post my review within 48 hours.

We'll see what happens

 

[jimblah]

I thought Ferengi weren't for real...

 

[jedidia]

I thought Ferengi weren't for real...

With todays western economy? The Ferengy could still learn a thing or two from our CEOs, I think... :lol:

Anyways, a thing like this pops up every now and then at E-Bay, where everyone can sell everything. It's sad to see it on Amazone, which should have stricter controls for this kind of thing (and not post-controlls, a la Kindle-incident).

 

[Ghostrider]

With todays western economy? The Ferengy could still learn a thing or two from our CEOs, I think... :lol:

I don't think so, Ferengi actually know how to do business and the behavior of our CEOs would horrify them. They deserve to be locked forever in the Vault of Eternal Destitution.

 

[Urwumpe]

The real villian here is Butterfly Media. I would suggest that some English citizen (Martin would be best since he is the owner of infringed material) to press charges against them. However, that may involve hiring a lawyer (or whatever they call them in the UK) which is quite expensive - and chances are not really worth it since all that's likely to happen is a slap on the wrist. A small fine - but no jail time for the guilty.

A cease and desist order against them isn't that hard to get done, it doesn't cost much money, and is quickly send to the bad guy. Ignoring a cease and desist is not a smart idea, this then starts a legal machinery that is pretty lucrative for lawyers - no sane lawyer will refuse to further work on it. The crime is not only selling Orbiter, but already offering it for sale is illegal.

Rejecting a cease and desist works for some time, but in this case, martins has the most annoying law of all times on his side, the copyright laws. There is no public domain, unless you explicitly say so as author. That is the reason why a lengthy license is needed for copyleft. If Martin wants, the bad guy enters a world of pain, unless he returns and obeys to a correctly signed cease and desist order.

Now imagine a typical mailbox company... like German customer rights groups already found out, using cease and desists against frauds that use mass cease and desists for earning money in an illegal way works pretty good. Once somebody accepted the mail, the ball is in their half of the game. It is pretty much a game over.

If a company has a legal mail address in the EU, but nobody to accept such legal certified mail, another machinery is started. "We are not at home" does not help if you are a Ltd. The next machine works slowly, but steadily and does not stop until you either react to such certified mail or are completely eradicated from the EU economy for having registered a fake company - some people have absolutely no humor there, the civil code of laws in all European countries do not make jokes. :tiphat: Some are maybe less hard than others (e.g. the British one is a joke compared to the German one) but all work the same way, at varying speeds. Everything that has just the tiny smell of "Somebody is maybe evading taxes or laundering money" causes a very allergic reaction.

It is not "just a slap on the wrist", if properly employed. It is a "Stop messing with my products, or I will take your money, your house, your wife and your dog."

 

[Tommy]

I don't think so, Ferengi actually know how to do business and the behavior of our CEOs would horrify them.

I'm no expert on Ferengi business theory, but I've always been under the impression that a true Ferengi would pass on a quick one time profit in favor of a lesser - but sustainable - profit. In other words - long term thinking was favored.

Unfortunately, here on Earth, it doesn't work this way. The "Quarterly" is God.

Let's pretend that I'm the CEO of a large corporation. The company I run has been slowly losing money for a few years - and I've been blaming "A Slow Economy", "Taxes", "Government Regulations", etc. I haven't lost enough money that I get fired, i just don't get a bonus. So I finagle the books a bit, and shift the losses all to the first three quarters. The last quarter I seem to actually make a profit - I don't really, but by shifting the profit/loss stuff I make it look that way. I get a huge bonus based on the alleged profits I made on that last quarter (and there's no "fine" for the three quarters where I lost money - just no bonus).

To put it simply - I can profit even when the company (and it's shareholders and emplyees) don't. At worst I will collect my base salary, and at best I get a bonus on top of that. If I do so poorly that I get fired, I collect a very hefty "severance package" (aka the Golden Parachute), and then, being an "experienced CEO" get hired almost immediately by another company - where i do the same thing all over again. I learned this at the College where I earned by Degree in Business.

How many of you know people who are addicted to gambling? I live in Wisconsin (where we have the largest "per Capita" alcohol consumption rate in the US). We have a very active and powerful "Tavern Leage". When the Native Americans were allowed to open Casinos, the Tavern League lobbied for bars to be allowed to have "Video Slot Machines", and won. I know several people who are addicted to Gambling. They only seem to remember when they win - and forget all the times they lose. They brag about winning 50 bucks one night - and just forget that they lost a few hundred the week before.

Owning stock is a gamble - and comes with that same memory loss. As long as a company seems to earn a profit once in a while the share holders seem to forget that the company is actually worth less today than it was when they bought in. That one profitable quarter seems to give them some kind of fantasy hope that the profitable quarter will repeat - never mind that the profitable quarters are few and far between.

Publicly owned corporations don't exist to make products. Let's say I run a Corporation called "WidgetCo". We make Widgets which people want or need. Our goal here at WidgetCo isn't to make Widgets, our goal is to make money. Making Widgets is just a means to that end.

Now, Butterfly Media probably isn't a publicly traded corporation - more likely it's some form of LLC (Limited Liability Company - or whatever the UK version of that is called) owned by a limited group of private investors. They still have the goal of making money - not an actual product. They can make a claim that they aren't responsible for the piracy - because they don't directly sell the product themselves. They sucker poor and desperate and/or lazy people into selling it for them. While they still profit from the piracy, they have a legal layer of "insulation". While it would be possible to dig through that insulation and successfully press charges, it would cost a lot of money (in legal fees, etc) to do so. Butterfly Media targets small, "Free Software" providers like Martin because they simply can't afford to successfully fight the legal battle - and since Orbiter is free and there is no claim of "lost profits" the Government can't be bothered to pay for it either.

Even if one person does successfully sue them, no-one goes to jail. It's too hard to say that any specific person is responsible - and you can't incarcerate a company. The end result is that the company pays a fine while the people who are actually responsible collect bonuses based on the profits made before the fine was paid - and who don't have to pay the fine themselves. And even if Martin got a settlement that was more than Butterfly Media profited by "selling" Orbiter - they have dozens of other "products" that aren't suing - so overall they still make a profit. They simply gamble that any individual copyright owner won't sue - and are prepared to pay the rare exception. In the end, they still profit.

The sad thing is that this is what they teach you to do in business school. For one example, look at MicroSoft. They used illegal practices, and were caught, convicted of felonious violations of the Anti-Trust laws, and were fined. Yet they still profited from those illegal activities and are held up an example of "Good Business Practices".

Apple is no better. Locking the I-Phone into one network was a clear violation of Anti-Trust laws. Now, Apple was a bit smarter and didn't wait til it went to court. When the other Cell Networks threatened to take it to court Apple relented and is now opening the I-Phone to other networks. They violated US laws, but since they didn't wait until it went to court they will never be charged - or fined - for the illegal activities they engaged in. This is also held up as a "Role Model" of "Good Business".

MicroSoft and Apple are just two of hundreds of examples of this. The modern Western business theory holds that breaking the law as long as you can get away with it isn't just acceptable - it's laudable. As long as it makes a profit.

I can't speak for the political system in countries other than the USA, but here there is no change in sight. The only people who could change this are the elected officials and representatives. However, it costs a LARGE fortune to run for office - and the only source of that kind of money are the very corporations who engage in these illegal and immoral activities. Obama tried to use "Grass Roots" financing when he ran for president - and ended up taking huge sums of money from the Oil industry (among others) simply so he could afford to compete. Now we have a President who can't deliver on the promise of Hope and Change that was his initial platform. Partly because he owes his election to the very powers he promised to fight, and partly because he isn't a King and the Congresspeople and Senators are also "In the Pocket" of big business and simply won't let him. That is, of course, assuming he ever really intended to deliver on those promises - I can't think of a president (since Carter) who acted like they meant what they said when campaigning.

The only way we, as common people, can fight this is through the Boycott. We could stop spending our money at Walmart and support local businesses. We could switch to Linux. We could buy our cars from Tesla Motors instead of GM. This would mean spending a lot more money for the products we buy, and most of us simply can't afford that.

Short of that, we can become politically active. Write letters (actual paper snail mail - not just "fill in the blank" form e-mails - they just get deleted or filtered) to your elected representatives. Fill the voice mail at their office. Let them know that you actually care - and will vote accordingly. Don't expect any immediate results - persistance and perserverence are required.

Urwumpe makes a good point - if you can make a case for tax evasion the Government WILL take up arms!

 

[Havner]

For another, Amazon won't let you comment on a product unless you've purchased it.

True, but below reviews is a product forum where you can post without purchasing. It's not as visible as a review but it's there. Additionally I just noticed there are tags, which I believe you can set without purchasing as well. There are some set already: Rip-off(3), Theft(1).

Amazon is supposed to post my review within 48 hours.

It's already there. You had to pay to the villain to post this?


EDIT not to double post:
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=OTAyOA

 

[HAL9001]

How can you sell a freeware on amzon?
it's just impossible!!!

 

[Yoda]

No I didn't have to pay him; if you have a account you can just post a review.

 

[Artlav]

DONT BUY THIS SOFTWARE ! YOU CAN DOWNLOAD IT FOR FREE FROM THE INTERNET !!!

Hm, not the best phrasing, since that's true for 99% of software.
The way you said it, it's ambiguous whether it's a free software, or software freely available.

How can you sell a freeware on amzon?
it's just impossible!!!

It happened, therefore it's possible.
He must have thought he's so smart, to figure out the "hole" in GPL and get the free money.

 

[gattispilot]

Is it really Orbiter? I know Orbiter can do much more than the description Amazon has posted.

 

[Rtyh-12]

Ahh. Not again. Those idiots keep selling such excellent, free software. I'm glad that someone (Yoda) wrote a review saying that it's free. I can't believe what some people can do for money.

 

[Izack]

Is it really Orbiter? I know Orbiter can do much more than the description Amazon has posted.

Take a look at the montage of screenshots he posted. It's definitely Orbiter, and a few of its addons.

 

[Rtyh-12]

Hmm... on Amazon they say that there are many add-ons as a free download. I guess that that means OrbitHangar. I wonder what a victim would think when they see there the 'download Orbiter' link...

 

[Artlav]

Take a look at the montage of screenshots he posted. It's definitely Orbiter, and a few of its addons.

Hm, that looks old. O2005 and before old.

 

[marooder86]

He must have thought he's so smart, to figure out the "hole" in GPL and get the free money.

I think it's the most reasonable explanation. Maybe it's some sort of try to rebrand Orbiter and sell it as own software. Just look at 3Dmagix, it's Blender with some artworks and tutorials. Now the website and content they trying to sell seems like nothing illegal, but back then when the whole thing come out and before community react, it wasn't so. But anyway I can't think of how one can bypass Orbiter's licence cause it speaks clearly that you can't sell it.
It's sad but thats how this world works, if there is a way to get "easy money" and somehow get away with it, there will always be people who will take that chance.