Orbiter Romantica (a hypothetical scenarior)

Well, I'd like to think I'm at least an OK driver. :P

I have no way of knowing how good you are, but if that's the case, I'm quite sure you didn't become an OK driver based solely on computer simulations.
 
Although I have to say that I find driving a car IRL a lot easier than on a computer. Probably because I drive it a lot more, and because the two have almost nothing in common... :shifty:
 
I have no way of knowing how good you are, but if that's the case, I'm quite sure you didn't become an OK driver based solely on computer simulations.

Of course not. Experience is the ultimate teacher. I can't say I've played many racing games, nonetheless a driving simulator. ;)
 
Do you think that a 15 year old racing sim wiz would be a good driver?

He would make a good kart driver and indeed, a lot of them start with racing sims.

Would a good Starcraft player make a good general?

A good general needs a lot of qualities,and the ability to adapt quickly to a changing situation and make up plans on the spot is one of those. That's why wargames exist outside the videogame scene.

But real life is too complex to be modeled in any sim, and the removal of the [Restart] button does have more impact than most people realize.

That's why you have sims - to train and train and train again until, when faced in RL with a problem, you don't freeze. Sims - when well made - are training. And anyway, we all navigate through real life without being Game Overed instantly all the time so as complex as it may be, it's also not that horribly hostile. Just a little bit indifferent.
 
He would make a good kart driver and indeed, a lot of them start with racing sims.

Crashing a real Detaglider would have more serious consequences than crashing a cart. But no track would allow anyone to race without the proper training in safety etc. And he would certainly not be allowed to drive on public roads without the required certificates.

Sim training can make you perform better, but it can't replace the proper education and certification. If personal space craft suddenly appeared by magic, Orbiteers would have to undergo the same astronaut training as anyone else. They would most likely perform above average when it comes to orbital navigation, but there's a lot more to space travel then just navigation.

If flying was just about throttle/yoke/pedals, there would be a lot more pilots around.
 
I wouldn't fly any of them, because you can't convince me that the takeoff wouldn't destroy everything with in a mile.

At the time my now-ex-girlfriend and I were dating, she swore to me that I would never get her into a plane or boat, so I'm pretty sure outer space is out of the question:lol:
 
Sim training can make you perform better, but it can't replace the proper education and certification.

I didn't state that. I stated that thorough training through simulation allows one to acquire confidence with controls, maneouvers and proper mindset in a safer and more economical way that it would be possible by relying on hands-on experience all the time. Simulations are used today in many areas before hands-on training. Unless you have the fuel and time to spare to practice a landing multiple times, using a simulator is the ideal solution before using a real vehicle.

And that's also why I chose the DGIV-2: it requires no manual control at all, you can fly it fully by autopilot and it's a V/STOL spacecraft which means I can land it almost anyplace. The only critical part is getting the right angle for re-entry, and with a little caution it's not a big hassle. Program 104 will handle the rest.
 
modern aviation is full of simulators. you may very well find an FO getting his first change to fly the real thing, is doing so with passengers on board. If the simulator is good enough...you will be able to learn how to fly it....after all, that is how John Young and Robert Crippen got skillz on the Space Shuttle
 
Not just aviation. Tank crews nowadays are trained 99% on sims, because of fuel consumption, environmental concerns and expensive maintenance on the real thing.
 
The only critical part is getting the right angle for re-entry, and with a little caution it's not a big hassle. Program 104 will handle the rest.

I'd worry more about being shot down before getting safely on the ground. Once air defence has been notified that an unknown target is passing the California coast at MACH25, program 104 isn't going to be much help. :lol:

I'm afraid you are missing the point I'm trying to make. Hands-on training (real or simulated) is only a small part of the education you need to get the proper certification. In the last 25 years the price of computing has dropped to the point that it's good value as a training method. Tank crews may do 99% of the training on simulators, but it's not 99% of the education.

I can tell you with 100% certainty that when a ATP-licenced pilot takes off with his first load of passengers, it's not his first real flight. As for STS-1 (along with any vehicle on it's first flight test) simulated training is the only option, at least for the reentry part of the flight. I bet they learnt a few things during the ALT test as well.

Can Orbiter make you better at orbital navigation? Yes!
Can Orbiter turn you into an astronaut? No! Not even anywhere close.
 
Tank crews nowadays are trained 99% on sims, because of fuel consumption, environmental concerns and expensive maintenance on the real thing.

They could just run the entire wars in sims, wouldn't that be nice?
 
As long as physics apply, I expect my DG to crash at the end of the runway. With several flavors of unobtainium, I could enjoy a DGIV flight to the moon, maybe beyond. The only thing is that I'm used to ignoring g-load no matter how much my crew screams. But really, give me a NASSP 7 Saturn V and a book of checklists.
 
But really, give me a NASSP 7 Saturn V and a book of checklists.

I really hate to tell you, but if NASA had a Saturn V siting on the pad, it wouldn't get you into LEO, never mind to the surface of the Moon. It would be far too dangerous in today's standards.
 
I really hate to tell you, but if NASA had a Saturn V siting on the pad, it wouldn't get you into LEO, never mind to the surface of the Moon. It would be far too dangerous in today's standards.

Isn't that the beauty of this hypothetical scenario? I need no certifications. And besides that, all I have to do is uncheck the Random Failures option!
 
Once air defence has been notified that an unknown target is passing the California coast at MACH25, program 104 isn't going to be much help.

What's going to hit you at Mach 25 ? :lol:
 
Oddly enough, I'd be able to... taxi around town. Maybe. I don't actually know how to drive. >_>

And I don't do well with roller coasters - I wouldn't be able to deal with the G-forces. <_<

IF we ignore that bit, I could make it to pretty much any planet/asteroid and back. I'd probably want to go to Titan, of course, because that's really cool. :3
 
I'd worry more about being shot down before getting safely on the ground. Once air defence has been notified that an unknown target is passing the California coast at MACH25, program 104 isn't going to be much help. :lol:

The way I see it, the topic of the thread is should a spacecraft from Orbiter materialize out in the field across town, would you be able to pilot it? Not should a spacecraft from Orbiter materialize out in the field across town, would the police cordon off the area. We're talking about handling the machine, not the 'orrible costs of the unobtainium fuel, the legal implication of flying around on an unlicensed missile or even the parking issues. Again, that's why I chose the DGIV-2. The topic is about being able to pilot it, and unlike the Ravenstar the DGIV-2 is a nice robot ship. It's like a Google car with rocket engines.

I'm afraid you are missing the point I'm trying to make. Hands-on training (real or simulated) is only a small part of the education you need to get the proper certification.

Are we talking about being able to do something or having a certification?

In the last 25 years the price of computing has dropped to the point that it's good value as a training method.

We've had simulators way before computers. They were very limited in scope but we've been using them before WW1. I'd say their value as a training method doesn't need to be proved further.

Tank crews may do 99% of the training on simulators, but it's not 99% of the education.

But it's 99% of the practice they'll get. When practicing with military hardware you have to drill a lot - that is repeat a set of actions until they become second nature any you don't have to consciously think about them when the heat is on. With a lot of equipment, they'll let you fire maybe one live round after you've simulated the hell out of it because then you need to get the feeling of what is it to shoot for real.

Example: the old Dragon wire-guided antitank missile is expensive as a live round, so you do your training on the simulator. You need to learn how to manipulate it, how to acquire targets, how to follow them after firing. However, the simulator cannot replicate the shock of firing a live missile and that's why they let you fire one after you've proved you can handle one in your sleep.

Simulators are not about education, but about simulating (never would have guessed!) the environment and procedures, throwing dilemmas at you and see how you cope with them all while yielding quantifiable results.

I bet they learnt a few things during the ALT test as well.

Again, I think we have a misunderstanding: simulators are not the only training you should get, but they're an important part of it. Many driving schools where I live don't even allow you on the roads with a real car until they've ran you through a simulator for some hours, and it is good.

Can Orbiter turn you into an astronaut? No! Not even anywhere close.

Never said that. I hold to my statement that if I ever ran into a DGIV-2 and had to fly it, I would know the procedures and how to handle it - because so much of it is automated. I would never try that with a Ravenstar or anything of the sort because I don't have proper pilot training.

As for the three-dimensionality of the real thing, I wouldn't worry so much: if it gives me any trouble, I would just close an eye: voilà, instant 2-D!:lol:
 
Well, in answering my own post I would be your man for re-entry and gett'n you down on the surface. With minimal instrumentation to boot. In a Ravenstar. Full manual control. Slamming into the atmosphere at 100 billion kph!

Takeoffs and orbital ops are simple as well.
But I need to hit the books on interplanetary navigation a bit.
 
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