Red Tails movie based on the Tuskegee Airmen

[mojoey]

Just saw this:

I think this is awesome. What do you guys think?

 

[Ark]

Lucasfilm? ILM? I'm on board.

 

[mojoey]

Lucasfilm? ILM? I'm on board.

lol, me too

 

[Star Voyager]

I'm going watch this movie with a careful eye having met some of the real Tuskegee Airmen myself.

 

[mojoey]

seriously? I met a ball turret gunner on a B-17 once at the Chino Planes of Fame museum when they were restoring the B-17 there...just plane epic....

 

[Ark]

I'm going watch this movie with a careful eye having met some of the real Tuskegee Airmen myself.

I'm not expecting perfect historical accuracy, just fun. The appearance of ME-262s already has me suspicious. :lol:

Still, though, it's a far cry from splicing in-cockpit shots together with gun cam footage.

 

[Star Voyager]

True, as it does say "Inspired" by true events. I talked extensively with Alexander Jefferson, and he gave his signed bio to me for free:

 

[jedidia]

ME-262? Battleship exploding after taking a bit of machine gun fire? hmmm... on second thought, that's only two silly things. Not bad for a Lucasfilm trailer. It really looks fun!

Looks like Lucas decided that WWII aerial battles might work in WWII as well as in space... :lol:

---------- Post added at 11:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:06 AM ----------

Correction on the ME 262. The red tails indeed HAD a run-in with ME 262s: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSWEO-ratKM"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSWEO-ratKM[/ame]

This is definitaly going to be fun!

 

[Melvin]

Inaccurate squadron markings, poorly rendered CGI, not to mention the suspension of physics.

Yep, sure does look "fun".

 

[jedidia]

poorly rendered CGI

While I wouldn't expect anything else from LucasFilms on the other two points you mentioned, I really wonder what makes you say this?

 

[Scruce]

Seems like a good movie, the B-17s over Germany reminded me of the Germany bombing scene in the Taken miniseries and the whole of Memphis Belle.

 

[Urwumpe]

ME-262? Battleship exploding after taking a bit of machine gun fire?

Not too unrealistic explosions though, but the dog fights with the Me 262 look a bit too optimistic for the P-51, the Me-262 must have its engines stalled and on fire for permitting such a kill.

The explosive 20mm projectiles of the MG 151/20 really score such damage, the 30mm projectiles of the Mk 108 were even worse, but luckily for bombers and fighters also having a shorter range because of the low muzzle velocity. Too compensate, there had been special rocket racks for anti-bomber missions on the Me 262A-1.

No idea what to say about the battleship - it looks like Star Wars, not real. There should be lots of smoke on them when you fire explosive projectiles at them and ready ammunition can catch fire or explode - but not instantly.

 

[Melvin]

While I wouldn't expect anything else from LucasFilms on the other two points you mentioned, I really wonder what makes you say this?

I don't know, to me the whole thing looked very "cartoonish".

The P-40's all making the turn with the exact same bank and turn radius reminded me of a scene from "Empire Strikes Back".

The P-51's flying low over the airfield looked awful.

The way Lucas wants to seemingly jam as many aircraft into a frame, without any regard for real world tactics is just ludicrous in my opinion.

I'm guessing this is going to be one crappy love story away from being another "Pearl Harbor".

Of course I'll rent it though.

 

[Ark]

Not too unrealistic explosions though, but the dog fights with the Me 262 look a bit too optimistic for the P-51, the Me-262 must have its engines stalled and on fire for permitting such a kill.

A P-51 has a reasonable chance of taking down a 262, they weren't particularly tough or armored aircraft. The Luftwaffe didn't have many capable pilots left by that point in the war, and the ones they did have often weren't properly trained to use the 262's unique performance characteristics. I'd bet on an experienced, well-trained P-51 pilot over some Hitler Youth draftee with a couple hours of flight time any day. With that much speed, it's easy to overshoot and land square in the other guy's gunsights. Also, the 262s were at a disadvantage if the could be drawn into a low-speed dogfight, as they suffered from poor low-speed maneuverability and a tendency for the engines to flame out under dogfight maneuvers.

Of course, they were extremely difficult to fight in the hands of proper pilots who developed appropriate tactics. The US response to that, naturally, was to keep them from getting off the ground in the first place.

 

[Melvin]

some Hitler Youth draftee with a couple hours of flight time

I'm pretty sure that they didn't allow those guys into the limited number of 262's.

It's my understanding that most 262 (and Me 163) kills happened during takeoff and landing. Once air superiority over the continent was lost the Germans started using "ack lanes". They would line up numerous AA weapons on the approaches to their airfields to try and cover incoming and outgoing aircraft.

Much like the cannons on Hoth I might add.

 

[Urwumpe]

A P-51 has a reasonable chance of taking down a 262, they weren't particularly tough or armored aircraft.

That is wrong, they actually even had self-sealing fuel tanks already. Not overly tough. But even better than some propeller fighters.

I'd bet on an experienced, well-trained P-51 pilot over some Hitler Youth draftee with a couple hours of flight time any day.

Sure, but that never happened. You had very unexperienced pilots on the older planes, but the Me 262 was used by veterans and test pilots. The HY was scheduled to fly much simpler cheaper planes, that never became expensive enough to actually fly (The Volksjäger program)

Many Me 262 veterans actually later helped rebuilding the German airforce for the NATO, Steinfeld for exampled managed to tame the Starfighter in the German role (which was not what the Starfighter had been designed for).

With that much speed, it's easy to overshoot and land square in the other guy's gunsights. Also, the 262s were at a disadvantage if the could be drawn into a low-speed dogfight, as they suffered from poor low-speed maneuverability and a tendency for the engines to flame out under dogfight maneuvers.

Yes, and that is where the few combat losses happened. But the Me 262 pilots learned quickly as well. They paid much more attention on energy and really used the advantage of their jet engines: During a turn, the really low drag Me 262 did not loose speed and energy as fast as a propeller fighter. They could not out-turn the P-51 by curve radius, but they had the ability to turn the P-51 into a lame duck without becoming slow themselves.

Of course, they were extremely difficult to fight in the hands of proper pilots who developed appropriate tactics. The US response to that, naturally, was to keep them from getting off the ground in the first place.

Exactly. And you had quite many Me 262 aces in the few years with really bad conditions for the Germans. Also the short range of the Me 262 was a problem, since you needed to land and refuel pretty soon. But even with just average pilots, you already had a very dangerous opponent there.

It is still very doubtful to kill a Me 262 by doing a tail slide. Unless you are so lucky to find one below you right when it happened and without you getting shot down while being completely helpless for seconds.

And trying to evade a P-51 by doing a tail slide is also pretty stupid. When it attacks you from behind, you will only notice it when it already fires at you. Not really the right time. If you notice the Me 262 earlier (because of your wingmen for example), doing a tail slide makes the job for the Me 262 much easier - it won't slow down as fast as you do and can follow your maneuver before it overshoots you.

 

[N_Molson]

I think their goal is not hyper-realism anyway, but making an action movie that will earn money. And well, it does seem entertaining (which is the goal of the movie industry).

Concerning the Me-262, I share Ark's analysis. That plane was mostly a bomber interceptor thanks to the unequaled rate of climb allowed by the jet engines. But it was pretty experimental anyway, and it was probably in deep trouble out of straight gunning runs (those jet engines were known for the unreliability of the throttleing, that could lead to engine fire in extreme cases).

And the P-51, well, it's one of the fastest propeller plane ever built. It had more than decent dogfighting abilities and a nasty firepower.

For the battleship scene, let's imagine there were some 300 mm gun shells carelessly left on the deck :lol:

 

[RisingFury]

You people just can't enjoy a movie.

 

[Urwumpe]

You people just can't enjoy a movie.

Apollo 13 was nice. :lol:

 

[Ark]

I'm pretty sure that they didn't allow those guys into the limited number of 262's.

It's my understanding that most 262 (and Me 163) kills happened during takeoff and landing. Once air superiority over the continent was lost the Germans started using "ack lanes". They would line up numerous AA weapons on the approaches to their airfields to try and cover incoming and outgoing aircraft.

Much like the cannons on Hoth I might add.

True, those guys got the fun missions like intentionally crashing 109s into bombers. But, you can't deny that the attrition rate on German pilots was horrendous, and most of their best talent was dead or out of action by late in the war. Given the right set of circumstances and right matchup of talent, a P-51 could take down a 262. If they don't see you, or get careless and overshoot, the six .50s can knock them down the same as anyone else.

But, again, it's all a moot point when the US could roll two planes out of the factories for every one lost in combat, and the 262s were bombed or strafed whenever their wheels touched dirt.

---------- Post added at 11:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:25 AM ----------

It is still very doubtful to kill a Me 262 by doing a tail slide. Unless you are so lucky to find one below you right when it happened and without you getting shot down while being completely helpless for seconds.

And trying to evade a P-51 by doing a tail slide is also pretty stupid. When it attacks you from behind, you will only notice it when it already fires at you. Not really the right time. If you notice the Me 262 earlier (because of your wingmen for example), doing a tail slide makes the job for the Me 262 much easier - it won't slow down as fast as you do and can follow your maneuver before it overshoots you.

But tail slides look coooool!