Removal of the Shuttle Fleet: David413 explains

[Bibi Uncle]

David413 posted at Dan's Orbiter Page about his removal of the Shuttle Fleets from Orbit Hangar. Please, take your time reading it completely before posting.

http://orbiter.dansteph.com/forum/read.php?f=1&i=21338&t=21338

 

[Cosmic Penguin]

Well I think the moderators here might need to do some explaining: complains like that shouldn't have triggered a warning to him, unless it was full of personal attacks. I'm not sure about how to deal with the credits issue (how were the add-ons uploaded there screened before putting them on?): any comments on that?

In any case I think that the whole classification and accepting process on Orbithangar should be reviewed. Maybe we should add more staff that takes a look at the uploaded add-ons and review if there are issues with using them and if there are some copyright issues lurking in them before releasing on O-H? What do you guys think?

GPS

 

[mojoey]

Why not post it here? Why go out of your way, and then ask to have someone post it on O-F? It's a very silly ploy for attention if you ask me.

 

[tl8]

The whole issue of copyright needs to be discussed with Vash. He is the sole staff member on OH and we cannot expect him to know every detail about every add on and if it breaks "copyright".

If an add on does break copyright, surely the aggrieved party should be the one providing proof and details?

In somewhat of an ironic twist, it appears that the Shuttle Fleet provides no indications on the copyright owner nor the rights they have reserved.

 

[jgrillo2002]

The whole thing was ridiculous. I mean why infract david if he was trying to defend his copyright? And who was the guy that was flaming at him. Either way I hope this is temporary. if he did indeed leave, then he could have just give away the source code. would be kinda stupid if he kept it for himself.

 

[IronRain]

I understand his decision. All those little irritations were just building up and now he has retired the fleet. We have to deal with it. I would be pretty pissed too if nobody gave me credit for my work while releasing minor tweaks and repaints for it. He has spent hundreds of hours coding the thing so he at least deserved that.

The shuttle fleet was one of my favorite add-ons and (although I still have it installed) I'm really gonna miss the add-on.

 

[jgrillo2002]

I understand his decision. All those little irritations were just building up and now he has retired the fleet. We have to deal with it. I would be pretty pissed too if nobody gave me credit for my work while releasing minor tweaks and repaints for it. He has spent hundreds of hours coding the thing so he at least deserved that.

The shuttle fleet was one of my favorite add-ons and (although I still have it installed) I'm really gonna miss the add-on.

true but the problem is that most addons upload at OH depend on SF. Like I said, at least he should give it away

 

[IronRain]

true but the problem is that most addons upload at OH depend on SF. Like I said, at least he should give it away

I won't deny that. Maybe a 'SF won't be updated anymore' solution would have been more Orbiter friendly, but then again: I understand his frustration and also his decision.

 

[jgrillo2002]

well whoever did this to Him will pay, without mercy.

 

[Codz]

Why not post it here? Why go out of your way, and then ask to have someone post it on O-F? It's a very silly ploy for attention if you ask me.

Did you read his post? He stated that he was wary of possibly getting infracted or warned.

 

[jedidia]

It's sad to see such a huge contributor go under these circumstances. While I understand many of his problems (add-on developing isn't exactly the most appreciated occupation around) and understand that after some time everyone goes weary, I do not understand his stance on the Orbit Hangar issue, but then again I don't really know what went on.

Goodbye Dave, you will be missed! :hello:

 

[Wishbone]

It is sad to see such great add-ons disappear. Can understand the psychology of the decision - David was long complaining that the vote system at OHM was not giving his (superb) add-ons enough credit; then the AutoFCS question emerged again and again and again, and was never resolved by the original developer; and lastly, [ame="http://www.orbithangar.com/searchid.php?ID=5525"]Shuttle Fleet repaint pack[/ame] and [ame="http://www.orbithangar.com/searchid.php?ID=5145"]Shuttle-fleet-Atlantis texture-change[/ame] appeared (possibly with [ame="http://www.orbithangar.com/searchid.php?ID=5525"]Shuttle Fleet repaint pack[/ame]).

 

[N_Molson]

Very sad news there, I loved Shuttle Fleet for its playability and the way it allowed to fly the Shuttle realistically without being an expert (as opposite to SSU).

It also worries me a little bit that he was fearing to post his explanation there. I agree on the fact it is quite rude to upload a repaint without quoting the author of the original textures. Seems to be the first step.

So David, if you read this, I hope you will change your mind. Know that there were a lot of "silent and happy" users like me that just enjoyed the addon.

 

[Urwumpe]

What a does David413 think he is? Couldn't he have left SSU out of the post?

We are not OpenShuttleFleet after all, and we are not really interested in the same user group. I am not even sure if we can deal with this user group. I lack the patience for that.

Also, I am not sure if mods of a mod are really copyright violations. They can be annoying and are best handled with "this voids your warranty", but there is no law that prevents people from replacing files on their computer.

Unless parts of your add-on are used somewhere else, it is not a copyright problem, but a matter of taste and being capable of saying "no", when somebody comes to you and wants you to fix your add-on so the mod works. If you don't like the mods of other people, make an "officially endorsed mod" medal for those you like and punish the others by lack of attention. Point the people to those mods you like in your manuals, and let the others look bad.

Also I can't understand this intriguing against O-F. I didn't get banned yet for much worse stuff and can still see most infractions with some sense of sportsmanship. Not sure what crossed his mind there. This also leaves a pretty acid taste here. I know that the moderators here are not always leaving their personality at the wardrobe, but there are really much worse places in the Internet. And this is not the old M6 forum, which was schoolyard bullying deluxe pretty often.

I can't understand it at all, but then "David413 retracting his add-ons" is now nothing new for most veterans in Orbiter. It happens, maybe this time it is final, maybe not.

Growing a thicker skin is often said in that context, he did it again, I gave up mentioning it some years ago already. A thicker skin doesn't make you understand the person at the other side of the display. And sometimes this understanding can result in the revelation: "Most people will attack you on a personal level, because they can't attack you on the professional level." Feel free to feel attacked personally by me, David, I am really not sure if I can do that on the professional level.

 

[Pablo49]

I use(d) ShuttleFleet quite a lot, though I never really use Orbiter much, so as much as SSU interests me, I have yet to take the time to try it out. So I preface this by saying I enjoy the addon, and the work put into it.

But,

I don't think all the grievances about why public development stopped were valid. That said, still his choice to stop development if he wishes, just don't drop all the blame onto your users.

Having never uploaded to OH, not knowing the rules there, and not being someone who's place it is to pass judgement on the rules there, I do have to say I think this got taken a bit too far. Remember megaupload, and how the general opinion is that they can only do so much to stop copyright infringement, yet they get taken down anyway? Would you prefer a system where the host is at fault for everything? Or would you prefer something like youtube, where videos can be taken down by false copyright claims sent out by companies who just want ad revenue on videos they don't even have rights to? If something was important enough to want taken down with such a fuss, surely it was worth the effort to provide names that you already have access to, even if you don't think you should be required.

Best option would really be making his own site. They aren't expensive, and doesn't have to be fancy (Even look at dan's page where this post was originally made. Isn't pretty, isn't fancy, but it has what it needs.). There you can have only your mods uploaded, you have direct and constant control over them. You can have a forum (although I guess it would be moot with public development now over) where it is against the rules for users besides David to give out support. Set rules for/against various kinds of bug reports or optimization requests, etc etc.

 

[jedidia]

Couldn't he have left SSU out of the post?

Huh? I haven't seen SSU mentioned anywhere in his post...?

 

[Urwumpe]

Huh? I haven't seen SSU mentioned anywhere in his post...?

At the end of it.

 

[Face]

Huh? I haven't seen SSU mentioned anywhere in his post...?

I think he refers to this:

It is time for me to move on, I look forward to the Space Shuttle Ultra and will watch it develop to fill the niche previously held by the Shuttle Fleet. My best wishes to all of you...

 

[4throck]

If you share a free add-on it WILL take a life of it's own and someone WILL do repaints, new meshes, etc, etc.

That is expected and a good thing. It means that your work is relevant to others.

If you want appreciation and control over your work then sell it! Really, if something takes that much time to do, it's illogical do give it way. Register it, sell it and provide support.
That's what the Flight Sim people do.

Now, there are a few points about copyright and OH. The "one addon » one author" is the source of most problems. One addon » many authors would be best.
How about an automated system that added the original authors to dependent addons, including repaints ?
This would cover derivative works. Also, I should be able to credit Nasa, for example, as co-author of textures, wikipedia for description, etc, etc.

 

[Urwumpe]

Now, there are a few points about copyright and OH. The "one addon » one author" is the source of most problems. One addon » many authors would be best.

That I would like.

How about an automated system that added the original authors to dependent addons, including repaints ?
This would cover derivative works. Also, I should be able to credit Nasa, for example, as co-author of textures, wikipedia for description, etc, etc.

That would be nearly impossible. Maybe it could already help if the license aspects could already be included in the add-on description. (For example having simple yes/no-flags of what you are permitted to do for both module and artwork, instead of the full license text)

But finally, you would need add-on developers who complain about people violating their copyrights and moderators who handle such complaints.

Unless you impose strict rules on the format of submissions, automatic systems wouldn't work. if the file format would for example be defined, O-H could not even look into the add-on files on up-load and compare the included files to already uploaded add-ons. (And I don't want to pay the server bill for the can of worms that this opens)