Scientific Method Mega Thread

[Hielor]

I understand your point, but I can't agree that a good teacher should not be allowed to teach because he/she has mentioned opinions we disagree with.

It's not an opinion, it's a blatant falsehood--and it's not that we disagree, it's that she's wrong. I certainly wouldn't want any children of mine picking up such ridiculous falsehoods from their teachers.

 

[Fizyk]

I certainly wouldn't want any children of mine picking up such ridiculous falsehoods from their teachers.

Ok, but you still can try reasoning with her, there is a chance you'll be able to explain the misconception, especially if she's an otherwise good teacher and listens to the students. I just don't think assuming she won't change her mind from the start is the best option.

 

[River Crab]

Funny...I had an English teacher who I also consider one of my best in high school, and he told the class he didn't believe the Moon landings, either...even showed a video... :lol:

However, it was really a device for teaching about disillusionment and logical (although not quite scientific) thinking; to tell students not to believe in things blindly, or just because they wanted to. He wanted people to debate about it, and stir up their thoughts.

I debated where I could, of course, even sent him some links to pages claiming that the Shenzhou missions were a conspiracy...after all, we have an easier time believing what we want to believe...
I think he might have actually believed in the moon landings happening after all. Just said he didn't to get people going. Fun guy. :lol:

Your teacher could just be a looney, though, in which case, don't make too much fuss. You know the truth.

 

[JEL]

It's not an opinion, it's a blatant falsehood--and it's not that we disagree, it's that she's wrong. I certainly wouldn't want any children of mine picking up such ridiculous falsehoods from their teachers.

She has no place in an institution of learning.

Your only option is to send your kids to a school that teaches according to YOUR beliefs.

It's not a crime to belong to a minority that believes in a non-mainstream world-view, and nor should it ever be again (in the dark ages round-earth believers were hunted and killed for such 'crazy' beliefs)

Anybody advocating pure absolutist world-views are potentially dangerous:

Galileo's championing of Copernicanism was controversial within his lifetime, when a large majority of philosophers and astronomers still subscribed to the geocentric view that the Earth is at the centre of the universe. After 1610, when he began publicly supporting the heliocentric view, which placed the Sun at the centre of the universe, he met with bitter opposition from some philosophers and clerics, and two of the latter eventually denounced him to the Roman Inquisition early in 1615. In February 1616, although he had been cleared of any offence, the Catholic Church nevertheless condemned heliocentrism as "false and contrary to Scripture",[10] and Galileo was warned to abandon his support for it—which he promised to do. When he later defended his views in his most famous work, Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, published in 1632, he was tried by the Inquisition, found "vehemently suspect of heresy", forced to recant, and spent the rest of his life under house arrest.

(I made the last part appear in bold text)

 

[jthill]

I certainly wouldn't want any children of mine picking up such ridiculous falsehoods from their teachers.

How better to teach your kids the proper limits to authority?

 

[Hielor]

Your only option is to send your kids to a school that teaches according to YOUR beliefs.

It's not a crime to belong to a minority that believes in a non-mainstream world-view, and nor should it ever be again (in the dark ages round-earth believers were hunted and killed for such 'crazy' beliefs)

Anybody advocating pure absolutist world-views are potentially dangerous:

(I made the last part appear in bold text)

You're confusing science and religion. Believing that the moon doesn't have gravity isn't a "non-mainstream world-view." It's ridiculous.

I don't care what people believe, and I don't want to make it a crime to believe whatever you want. It should, however, be a crime to infect the minds of our youth with such idiocy.

 

[T.Neo]

Yeah, here's the difference: We've actually been to the Moon, there are people out there who have walked on the Moon and jumped on the Moon and dropped stuff on the Moon and even driven a vehicle about on the Moon, and they know what it's like.

Galileo was persecuted for following a worldview that conflicted with the mainstream worldview of the time, that wasn't supported by any such hard evidence, and was in fact superseded by a worldview that better fit the evidence.

Claiming there isn't any gravity on the Moon isn't "a different worldview" that should be accepted and tolerated; it's stupidity.

I don't know if people like her should be immediately ousted from the education system, but it should be given serious thought.

 

[Coolhand]

wow, an ignorant teacher, who'd a thunk it...

Teachers teach their own personal beliefs constantly, maybe its just my own experience but i find teachers are as weird as anyone else, and often weirder. Perfect teachers are not possible to have... If she wants to have that belief, fine.. its not a part of the lesson apparently even.

Students can always look things up for themselves, whats dangerous is if people are educated to believe blindly what any authority figure tells them. Which to my mind is often what education is about, more about indoctrination than education.

Take the information you need to get through your education and get good grades, and ignore the BS if you can.

Look stuff up for yourself and make your own mind up, otherwise this COULD HAPPEN TO YOU.

 

[jedidia]

It's not an opinion, it's a blatant falsehood

which comes from all our lips every now and then, nothing wrong with that, really, as long as it's sincere error it isn't lying. Although it might be prudent for the directorate to tell her that she's supposed to teach english and please not mix in fields she doesn't have any Ideas about. And a few hours sitting in in physics class to brush up. It's not like teachers don't have to learn.

 

[N_Molson]

I hope she doesn't make a single mistake in English, because if it is the case, it looks like she will never ever admit it.

And then she will teach false things in her discipline, which is a problem.

Here, teachers have some kind of code that holds in 10 laws. Amongst them, "it is required for teachers to have good general knowledge" (which also implies that you have to stay up to date). Seems it isn't the case here.

 

[Dambuster]

It's not an opinion, it's a blatant falsehood--and it's not that we disagree, it's that she's wrong. I certainly wouldn't want any children of mine picking up such ridiculous falsehoods from their teachers.

It is an opinion - just not a correct one. For whatever reason, she probably thinks it to be an obvious truth, and probably doesn't understand why she's wrong.

But either way, I don't think anyone has the right to go around saying 'you think this, therefore you cannot hold job X'. However if she were to start going around preaching about the 'hoax of the Moon landings' or 'physics according to me', then she's doing something manifestly wrong (i.e. influencing children contrary to what is accepted as fact, and presenting her own opinions as incontrovertible facts), and probably shouldn't be a teacher any more.

 

[Hielor]

It is an opinion - just not a correct one. For whatever reason, she probably thinks it to be an obvious truth, and probably doesn't understand why she's wrong.

Oh man, blast from the past!

There are opinions, there are facts, and there are falsehoods. Problems arise when you have opinions which are falsehoods and present them as facts.

 

[Tommy]

Reading the original post, it appears that the teacher made those comments in a private conversation. If she was teaching that to the class, it would be prudent to report it to school officials, but as a private conversation it just doesn't merit any reaction other than "WTF, dude - glad she isn't my physics teacher!"

Now, I think that the Moon has gravity, but I'm not omnicient. I can't say with absolute certainty that it does. Neither can anyone else. The same science you use to prove it does was repeatedly used to prove that bumblebees can't fly.

Every "fact" we used to know has eventually been proven incorrect - or at least partially incorrect. I find it hard to beleive that the "facts" we know today will prove to be any different. We used to "know" that the Earth was the center of the Universe, now we "know" that it's not even the center of the Solar system. We "know" where the center of the universe is (at least approximately). Yet quantum mechanics says that everywhere is the center of the universe - and at the same time there is no center to the universe.

A "fact" is simply an idea that hasn't yet been proven wrong.

However, I also have to wonder how she can rationalize that the Earth has gravity, but the Moon doesn't. That would require a difference between the Earth and the Moon that can only be described as "magical"! Or I suppose she could be confusing Gravity with Magnetism - although why would magnetism affect things that don't react with magnets ...

 

[T.Neo]

If the "fact" that the Moon has gravity is false, how do you explain tides? The slowing of the Earth's spin? Detections by ultra-sensitive gravity sensors? Peturbations of spacecraft?

Out of all the "facts" that could turn out to be wrong, the fact that the Moon is massive and has gravitational pull, is a near-certainty. Because, essentially, any other explanation is far, far less likely.

People often make comparisons between us, our ancestors thousands of years from now, and our descendants thousands of years in the future. But such comparisons do not work, most of the time; today we are in a position where we can learn, scientifically, much more than the people of the Roman Empire could for their time, and test it with far better accuracy as well. Sure, there are many things that we are unsure of in physics, but there are many other things that we are quite sure of; as sure of, as an early inhabitant of Europe was sure of the Sun shining in the day and the stars shining at night.

Simply put: when it comes to science, we're not morons.

 

[Krikkit]

Now, I think that the Moon has gravity, but I'm not omnicient. I can't say with absolute certainty that it does. Neither can anyone else. The same science you use to prove it does was repeatedly used to prove that bumblebees can't fly.

It is epistemological rubbish like this which give credence to the arguments of the religious right when they are trying to replace evolution in schools with creationism, or quacks who push homeopathic drugs down the throats of cancer patients.

There is gravity on the moon. That is there is an attraction between the moon an other matter. At the moment we think it may have something to do with mass and the bending of space, or the exchange of gravitons depending on what cosmic boat you are in. We have built mathematical models which can tell you exactly what that attraction will be down to the several hudred thousandth decimal place.

A thousand years from now whatever they call it, and by whatever means they discover how it works, and even if they turn it off because well... they just don't like the nagging feeling of it, doesn't change the FACT that right now when drop a pen on the moon it makes its way to the surface.

If you want to teach people about the about the absolute absence of knowledge, elementary school is not the place to do it. They need to first come to terms with the ability of actual science to best describe whichever reality they are perceive.

 

[JEL]

You're confusing science and religion. Believing that the moon doesn't have gravity isn't a "non-mainstream world-view." It's ridiculous.

I don't care what people believe, and I don't want to make it a crime to believe whatever you want. It should, however, be a crime to infect the minds of our youth with such idiocy.

No, Hielor, it's you who confuse subjective belief with objective fact (we've had this discussion before )

You can not rid yourself of yourself, by-pass your own subjective mind, when analyzing what you experience (unless maybe you're some kind of all-seeing all-embracing god or omni-present super-being).

Humans are subjects, therefore the truth must be subjective.

 

[Hielor]

No, Hielor, it's you who confuse subjective belief with objective fact (we've had this discussion before )

You can not rid yourself of yourself, by-pass your own subjective mind, when analyzing what you experience (unless maybe you're some kind of all-seeing all-embracing god or omni-present super-being).

Humans are subjects, therefore the truth must be subjective.

There is nothing subjective about the fact that the moon has gravity. None of us here had experienced it, but that doesn't matter.

 

[JEL]

There is nothing subjective about the fact that the moon has gravity. None of us here had experienced it, but that doesn't matter.

How can you say anything about the moon, that does not involve yourself as an observer?

You can not remove yourself from the 'equation', do you not agree? :

Moon + Hielor = Hielor's truth about the moon

The instant YOU say anything about the moon YOU become part of the equation.

You can NOT say anything about anything without involving your own self.

No science, or religion, or anything else, done by a human can be free of human influence. It's just not logically possible to exclude the influences of the observer, Hielor. It's a filter you cannot bypass. The observed can only be observed by an observer.

Bite the apple my friend
Otherwise you'll never know how it tastes.

 

[Hielor]

Subjectivism breaks down when you look at things like acceleration due to gravity. It can be measured. It can be calculated. there is one right answer, and it doesn't matter who does the calculating or the measuring, if they do it properly, they all arrive at the same answer. Me saying that there is gravity on the moon, based upon experiments and calculations that others have done, does not magically change the result.

I wonder how well you would do in math class if I asked you to add two and two in a base ten numbering system and you answered five, and insisted it's correct because that's what you subjectively believe.

I'm not saying that everything can be objectively measured or quantified, but there are some things that most assuredly can be. Like gravity. Someone who claims that gravity does not affect them is lying or insane.

 

[Dambuster]

So you don't think that someone can be sane, and also go against the current 'opinion' of science?