Soyuz TMA-11 Landing

I think Oberg is one of the engineers, who call it "survival", when they manage to find edible food in London.

Of course, you can ask: Why a firearm? And you are right. No Soyuz crew ever had to fight bears. Or wolves. Or Chinese. Or had to fire a flare. But WHEN you need it, and you don't have it, it is too late.
 
An Energia man's comment

An interesting opinion was expressed on a Russian space forum during duscussion of the TMA-11's ballistic reentry possible causes. Some poster said that, to his knowledge, a Soyuz capsule is very sensitive to pressure focus shifting during a reentry; not in just any direction, however, but only towards exceeding yaw channel disturbance.

By his words,
"The idea of the controlled descent is based upon an assumption that the COG is deliberately displaced along the vertical axis by a precisely calculated distance; at the same time, it can be displaced along the horizontal direction only in the adjustment limits (the limit switches of gyroscopes horz axis). The vertical gyros axis doesn't have those switches (or, more precisely speaking, their role there is different)... It all leans against an expectation that during a reentry the aero force exerted on the bottom would turn the capsule in the way such that the total force vector passes through COG, thus providing the necessary AOA.
Add to that that during the Soyuz design nobody put much effort to design the Descent Control System anew, it was taken as a ready part of a different hardware item, the one which had pretty stable COG location. This had been quite passable since Soyuz was intended for short missions with the same people comprising the crew, so it wasn't a big problem to predict the location of the COG. On the other hand, when the capsule diameter shrunk, the COG and the COP has neared each other pretty close, which made the entire thing very sensitive towards shifting of either. Now, with very small COG displacement, the capsule tends to turn to side and the AOA is sustained not only by the force acting on the bottom, but also on the bell part (top). Which is, IMO, very good, because thus a stable equilibrium is achieved much better than it would be according to the design specs. Meanwhile, it somehow turned out that the stable AOA in this position is exactly what it's ought to be and the landing goes nominal and nobody minds that the top part of the capsule is burnt so badly every time.
However, if we have a greater than usual disbalace on the horizontal axis, we are getting a yaw disturbance. The automatic control system is taught to assume only a bank disturbance and tries to straighten it up, then goes crazy and fails, sending the capsule into a BR.
So it might just happen that the little Korean was just too dolly in her side seat or the payload wasn't distributed accordingly.
Personally, I'd rather prefer it to be always a ballistic reentry, 'cause the g-load is greater, yes, but two times shorter in duration and the landing spot would be predictable better".

:hmm:
 
The idea is not bad, but has some tiny flaws. First of all, Soyuz has nominally three channels during reentry, which are active:

Pitch and yaw stabilize the AOA and side slip, so the capsule does not oscillate like crazy because of the rather chaotic situation on the ablating heat shield.

The only free channel is bank, which can be used for regulating the trajectory.

I don't know the exact design limits, but the Soyuz thrusters should be able to compensate some limited CoG inbalance. More mass inbalance than just one astronaut being a bit on the light side.

The older soyuz models even required you to transfer special counterweights from capsule to capsule when swapping, but modern Soyuz models have a better avionic system and should be able to compensate such offsets by guidance laws.
 
Andy: I've completely lost respect in Oberg recently. Yes we need to examine what has caused these Soyuz incidents, but the thing is hardly unsafe - Oberg doesn't seem to get that. And his complaints about setting fire to the grass, that sounds like something CNN would say in order to make it sound more dangerous.
Oberg is the one who, for years, has been going on about improving safety and provisioning for all occurences - and now all of a sudden he seems to have completely turned around on this. It's quite sad.



Now, on the the Soyuz offset issue. All we know for certain on this issue is that the Soyuz entered ballistic mode because the computer calculated that the yaw movements would be beyond it's control during reentry. Whether this is because of mass positioning within the craft or because of sensor error I don't know.
 
Now, on the the Soyuz offset issue. All we know for certain on this issue is that the Soyuz entered ballistic mode because the computer calculated that the yaw movements would be beyond it's control during reentry. Whether this is because of mass positioning within the craft or because of sensor error I don't know.

Well, to say thruth we don't know anything for sure. Except for that the crew denied that they commanded the capsule, purpotedly or accidentaly, to enter the ballistic reentry mode.

However, there was also a comm disruption during this reentry, mysterious no less itself.
 
However, there was also a comm disruption during this reentry, mysterious no less itself.
Didin't this also happen with the TMA-1 entry and landing after which it was discovered that the antenna had been burned off during entry?
 
I think Oberg is one of the engineers, who call it "survival", when they manage to find edible food in London.

Of course, you can ask: Why a firearm? And you are right. No Soyuz crew ever had to fight bears. Or wolves. Or Chinese. Or had to fire a flare. But WHEN you need it, and you don't have it, it is too late.

Come to think of it, if I had my Soyuz land in London, I might really need a gun in order to find edible food.
 
Come to think of it, if I had my Soyuz land in London, I might really need a gun in order to find edible food.

Even worse. You can't expect help to arrive in the next week, because the ground crew does not get a ticket to enter downtown London with their cars.
 
2 p.m. EDT, Tuesday, April 22
Associate Administrator for Space Operations William Gerstenmaier will give an overview and answer questions on Saturday's Soyuz landing.
NASA News Audio: http://www.nasa.gov/news/media/newsaudio/index.html

Started now.

There's some half-confirmed rumors going around that TMA-11 suffered a pyro-bolt failure separating the Instrument and Propulsion Module which caused the Descent Module to re-enter hatch-forward instead of heatsheild first. This is what happened on Soyuz 5 in January 1969.
 
Check out this 'article':

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/space/2008-04-22-soyuz-danger_N.htm


Has anyone else seen anything regarding mis-orientation during reentry? Not much in the way of information here.

The article is correct, but just almost 30 years late. The incident with reentering hatch first happened to Soyuz-5 in 1969. The service module did not separate properly after the Soyuz-4/5 docking mission, with Shatalov as single astronaut on-board.

This time:

The ballistic mode was possibly triggered by a yaw rate excess - or faulty sensors or faulty sensor cables. Cables are more likely currently.

After the Soyuz switched to ballistic mode, there was no mis-orientation possible - the rotation canceled out any alignment problems.
 
Even worse. You can't expect help to arrive in the next week, because the ground crew does not get a ticket to enter downtown London with their cars.

And what if - perish the thought! - they end up in France? What if they do not know at which restaurant or brasserie does the right rat work? What if they can't master the right accent and the locals mistake them for Englishmen and taunt them?

Oh the horror! The horror!

And I have this image of Simon Pegg and Nick Frost emerging from a Soyuz capsule in the middle of the French countryside...
 
And I have this image of Simon Pegg and Nick Frost emerging from a Soyuz capsule in the middle of the French countryside...

Even worse. Out of the middle of a scorched field. With the French farmers only needing 30 seconds from pure surprise and horror to taking their tools and form a mob.

With the French police being no help either, as they should arrest the crew for arson and littering, but they instead realize that the astronauts getting killed by angry farmers would be handled by the other department.
 
And of course, there's the danger if they send them to that terrible Planet of the Apes.

Wait a minute... Statue of Liberty... that was our planet! You maniacs! You blew it up! Damn you! Damn you all to Hell!
 
Doctor Zaius, Doctor Zaius...
 
Dogsbd: He does not have Survival in his resume. And I can't find any information how he handles bears in the landing zone. But he survived in London, AFAIK.
 
It might not be the case this time, since comms disappeared upon the modules separation. Still above the atmosphere.

I now REALLY wish I could get a time line of the events of this flight. I just watch "House" and have a Russian patient with a strange disease in front of me, and the typical illnesses don't seem to apply. :speakcool:

And where are the communication antennas currently located? :huh:
 
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