Idea Time Dialation

[weepleman]

Has anyone made a module that would slow time down as your vessel sped up, andIncrease your ships mass. This would keep you from getting above the speed of light like you can in orbiter normally. I don't see how this would be useful for realistic ships, but it would be nice for sci-fi ships. I would try to make this myself, but I have no idea where to start.

 

[Dig Gil]

Well, there are Warp Speed MFD.

 

[EtherDragon]

Slowing down time would be problematic, since, IIRC, time in orbiter is stepwise factors of 10.

The change in mass would be awesome to model...

 

[TSPenguin]

Time can be pretty good controlled via the API. But why? No matter how fast you go, time stays the same for you. So in order to turn orbiter into a relativistic simulation, you'd have to rewrite the whole core, as it has been discussed in countless threads.
Having an increase in mass would be a nice aproximation of relativistic effects. I would not want it if all the other effects are not modelled though.

 

[the.punk]

It's not just when you increase vel you increase mass.
On the ship you wouldn't notice the mass increasing. You only notice it to an relative observer. Exsample: When I fly towards earth with high speed my mass would be relative to earth (earth observer) higher. But when another ship flies with the relative speed zero to me the mass of my ship (as seen from the other ship) would be the same as onboard.
Same goes for time dilatation...When you fly near light speed you don't notice this on your ship. But when you look out of the window the earth would age slower. So you must have multiple clocks in orbiter.

And when you want to simulate one these effects you must simulate all three:
Timedilatation
Mass
Length contraction

 

[computerex]

I wonder why no one has written something like this already...Aside from the math, the thing itself is trivial to make.

 

[tblaxland]

the thing itself is trivial to make.

See the posts above about the observers. Different observers will observe the relativistic effects differently. Every time the camera changes position/ship changes focus you would need to change the relativistic vessel's position/speed/mass and the sim time for the new observer. That would require you to know the history of the vessel's movements.

 

[the.punk]

See the posts above about the observers. Different observers will observe the relativistic effects differently. Every time the camera changes position/ship changes focus you would need to change the relativistic vessel's position/speed/mass and the sim time for the new observer. That would require you to know the history of the vessel's movements.

Yes.

Orbiter has a simtime for all ships/planets. This system can't be used anymore because it is relativity. It's not just when I fly near light speed my clock goes slower. How fast the time goes on my ship is depending on what observer is looking at me.
Everytime I change the observer the time on my ship/other ships must be new calculated.

 

[computerex]

See the posts above about the observers. Different observers will observe the relativistic effects differently. Every time the camera changes position/ship changes focus you would need to change the relativistic vessel's position/speed/mass and the sim time for the new observer. That would require you to know the history of the vessel's movements.

I was taking that in account when I said it would be trivial...I understand the basic principles of relativity you know, I DID take physics after all You shouldn't assume whether or not someone knows something or not, especially if you don't have much to make the assumption on.

 

[Face]

Interesting topic.

Let's say you only take the focus object's frame of reference (FoR) into account, what would happen to the "universe" (time, distances, masses)?
In this same FoR, what would happen to the object's properties (time, distances, masses)?

IIRC, time on universe should be slowed down, distances parallel to the relative motion shortened.
For the object itself I only know that time and distances should stay the same.
So simulating relativity would not change the VC or on-board time. Instead, the "universe" would have to be slowed down and "shortened" in the direction of flight.

What about the masses? "Mass is getting bigger for the object, thus c can not be reached" always confused me, since Einstein himself refrained from the concept of invariant masses and instead focussed on energy and momentum.

So how can the lightbarrier be explained from the POV of the object itself? I suspect the Lorentz operations would be applied to the observed object's (the "universe" in this case) property as well, so every mass in the universe is getting bigger, not the mass of the object as observed as rest mass from observers in the FoR.

Mind you, I'm talking about observers in the FoR itself, not observers in the "universe". Those would see mass of the object increase, therefore no-go for warp 1.

In the end, I think simulating relativity would not change anything for the focus object itself, but the view to the "universe". I think there would be no lightbarrier for the object, because observers in this FoR will indeed reach there destination faster than with lightspeed, just not observed as higher velocity, but as "flying through contracted, slowed-down space with increased masses".
EDIT: Of course Doppler shift needs to be calculated, too, otherwise the twin paradox would really look... well... paradoxal. I think this together with the other non-isotropical effect - length-contraction - would make the really hard part for implementation. On the whole I'd say it is far from trivial to fully implement even only special relativity.

That said, I'm no physics major, so feel free to correct my assumptions...

regards,
Face

 

[computerex]

If you want a relativity simulator: Write one. Implementing relativity in a simulator that is based on classical physics isn't exactly a good idea. However writing something that addresses the most obvious relativistic effects is something that can be done without too many issues. The API allows us to modify the time, add an arbitrary force, and modify the location of the vessels. That is I think enough to simulate something like time dilation.

 

[Face]

If you want a relativity simulator: Write one. Implementing relativity in a simulator that is based on classical physics isn't exactly a good idea. However writing something that addresses the most obvious relativistic effects is something that can be done without too many issues. The API allows us to modify the time, add an arbitrary force, and modify the location of the vessels. That is I think enough to simulate something like time dilation.

Well, you're right about the API, but the point is: there is no most obvious relativistic effect. Implementing mass increase or time slow-down will be just another fantasy addon. It will in no way "show a bit of relativity". Time dilation is not just slowing down the simulation.

regards,
Face

 

[tblaxland]

I was taking that in account when I said it would be trivial...I understand the basic principles of relativity you know, I DID take physics after all You shouldn't assume whether or not someone knows something or not, especially if you don't have much to make the assumption on.

My apologies. It is not your abilities as a physics student that have been demeaned then, but rather my abilities as a coder. I would not, sadly, classify such an endeavour as "trivial". What else can I say now, other than: go forth and code, my friend

Implementing mass increase or time slow-down will be just another fantasy addon.

Not that there is anything wrong with that, of course, provided that the addon does not claim to be something that it is not. The use of simulation software for entertainment (what I expect most on this forum use it for) is all about fantasy.

 

[computerex]

Well, you're right about the API, but the point is: there is no most obvious relativistic effect. Implementing mass increase or time slow-down will be just another fantasy addon. It will in no way "show a bit of relativity". Time dilation is not just slowing down the simulation.

regards,
Face

As I was leaving for school (I drive now ) I thought: What is the point of it anyway ? Because as it is already pointed out in this thread you as the pilot won't notice anything. Still, an excellent opportunity to once again appreciate how incredibly confusing relativity is.

I would not, sadly, classify such an endeavour as "trivial".

I find that guys like you who actually know what they are doing tend to write things that are complex and beautiful (until the complexity gets out of hand ). Guys like me try to find simpler ways to do something because of own lack of knowledge.

 

[Face]

Not that there is anything wrong with that, of course, provided that the addon does not claim to be something that it is not. The use of simulation software for entertainment (what I expect most on this forum use it for) is all about fantasy.

Yes. Nothing wrong with fantasy .

As I was leaving for school (I drive now ) I thought: What is the point of it anyway ? Because as it is already pointed out in this thread you as the pilot won't notice anything. Still, an excellent opportunity to once again appreciate how incredibly confusing relativity is.

Indeed an excellent opportunity it is. I still miss something like Orbiter for relativity to clear up all the confusion about it. Just like Orbiter did it for Newton.

I find that guys like you who actually know what they are doing tend to write things that are complex and beautiful (until the complexity gets out of hand ). Guys like me try to find simpler ways to do something because of own lack of knowledge.

Simple is not always right. In fact, starting simple often leads to too much complexity in the end.
Violating KISS is a trend with software engineers, though. So I think your comment above has some truth in it, unfortunately.

regards,
Face