What do you think orbiter is?

What is orbiter

  • A spaceflight simulator

    Votes: 33 46.5%
  • A game

    Votes: 3 4.2%
  • Both

    Votes: 35 49.3%

  • Total voters
    71
Does that also make this a tool, or just another "game"?

That's not a tool, it's a game. Show me that it allows you to design your own cars from scratch to model acceleration, aerodynamics, and braking... It's a racing game, not a driving simulator... I've driven before... A driving simulator would consist of not exceeding the speed limit, following traffic sighs, getting stuck in traffic, having parts on your vehicle break, and the occasional neighborhood kid who kicks his ball into the road.

[SIZE=-1]a game is a contest with rules to determine a winner... I don't see how orbiter itself can fit that definition. Some scenarios may provide a goal, or some sort of achievement perhaps, but that's just a game inside orbiter. orbiter itself is not a game. This is just my opinion and i'm not going to change my mind, but you're welcome to your opinion. If orbiter is a game to you, then it's a game to you :-) Though initially it seems from the poll that most people don't call it a game.[/SIZE]
 
GT isn't a 'driving through traffic obeying all the laws of the road simulator' it's a Racing simulator, and a pretty good one at that.

One of the beauties of Orbiter is that it is what you make of it... It's not a game since theres no scoring or actual gameplay in the core application - though i believe theres some implementation for scoring in the new version for making it to the iss with a certain vehicle and a certain fuel load, allowing people to compare their scores. This is an element of gameplay and there's nothing wrong with that in the context of a sim, depends whether you want to prove how capable a pilot you are or whether you care about that at all, it's certainly a motivation to prove your skills which can't be a bad thing.

If anything Orbiter provides something similar to a sandbox game, you can do whatever you want, like a freeride in GTA or something, though it lacks any AI or NPC's to interact with, and again there's no scoring, nothing to accumilate other than experience. Addons like orbinomics provide an element of accumilation, though there doesn't seem to be any particular goal like being able to buy new ships like one would in say, elite. And there's a shooter addon thats been developed recently which is definately a game sitting within the sim, but again it's up to the end user what they want to do with the application. I think you could make a pretty good space-trading combat game based around the elite model within the framework of the orbiter core, which would be immense fun, esp if you could implement mmorpg elements.

As for me personally, i've been more than happy to use the application to learn more about how orbital manuvering and interplanetary flight actually works - which would not be possible without Orbiter being a simulator of course, just as GT can teach you about how to take a corner at speed, the same techniques apply in real life. And i'm always amazed that i get to do this for free and what people do and also release for free, take what you want from it and leave the rest, no point *****ing about what other people do with it or how they define it. it's not hurting anyone, in fact a wide variety of addons and new ideas should be praised and encouraged since they will only help to grow the community and perpetuate other addons and new projects.
 
From a gaming point of view, Orbiter is evolving from pure simulator to a "sandbox" style game where you have lots of freedom of movement. We don't have NPCs or opponents but this issued I see is being addressed.
 
Orbiter itself is a space flight simulation. But there is some stuff in it and also addons which makes it a fun game too (Delta Glider, the Lunar wheel and other science fiction spacecraft gimmickry...).

I rather prefer real spacecraft simulations, and even more improtant: systems simulations. For me that's what a simulation is about. Anything else just is gimmickry. But it's a matter of taste.
 
If you go by definitions...
From dictionary.com

Game:
1.an amusement or pastime

Simulator:
2.a machine for simulating certain environmental and other conditions for purposes of training or experimentation

To me both describe orbiter.
Even though it is titled as a space flight simulator, im pretty sure all of us here play it for fun.

EDIT: Also I just thought of, a game is basically anything you play for amusement or fun. Depending on if its from Halo to the Sims or Orbiter to GTA.
They all fall under their own genres, which Orbiter would fall under the simulation genre. So Orbiter would both be a game and a simulator

Exactly.........which 1 do we use it for more. 1. amusement or pastime
2.training or experimentation.

people only get so fussy about the simulation tag because they dont like to think they invested so much time in a game
 
From a gaming point of view, Orbiter is evolving from pure simulator to a "sandbox" style game where you have lots of freedom of movement. We don't have NPCs or opponents but this issued I see is being addressed.

yeah, as i mentioned i see this happening as well, not in the orbiter core of course, but through the 3rd party addons... I did briefly discuss this with doug, how cool it would be but of course it would be tons of work.

You can already see the seeds of this with the simple combat addon and orbinomics. The real challenge would seem to be either getting online functionality or AI opponents. Thinking back many years to Frontier - the sequel to elite, ships could be generated to fly from planet to planet, they were shockingly dumb at times, flying into the ground occasionally but it worked well enough and that was long, long time ago now.

In fact just having some more traffic, regardless of whether you're competing with them in any way, would be fantastic. Orbiter, for all its beauty and detail, can feel very lonely and bare at times - not a big deal if you're only into re-creating Apollo missions or things like that, but imagine a whole system populated with something like Greg Burches or Doug Beachy's addons flying from place to place, landed at spaceports, docked at stations... all flying with their own computer controlled agenda.

It would be awsome to see a Space Traffic Control addon, it would quite possibly be the most important addon for orbiter to date since it could add to the experience in the sim and open the door to all sorts of possibilities.

Moonwalker said:
Orbiter itself is a space flight simulation. But there is some stuff in it and also addons which makes it a fun game too (Delta Glider, the Lunar wheel and other science fiction spacecraft gimmickry...).

I see where you're coming from, but just because you're flying a DGIV or an XR5 or whatever it doesn't instantly make orbiter a game, it's just simulating something conjectural, fictional, rather than something thats actually a real thing like the shuttle. Again, a game has 'gameplay' set goals, a score, things to accumilate, ways of competing against another player - all of which can exist within a simulator framework, but a simulator for it's own sake, like a simulator to teach someone to fly ignores features of gameplay because someone else is rating you - you have to pass a test or do it for real eventually, thats a 'real' simulator. By comparision, no one is going to go from Orbiter to flying the shuttle for real.

So, in terms of gameplay features, Orbiter has very little of these things, the closest you get are the scenario missions which give you a set goal. There's no actual conclusion to it as such though, it's open ended like a sandbox mission and there's no consequences, though with some addons you can destroy your craft and kill your crew - which is another gameplay feature thats sneaked in. As a simulator in it's purest sense Orbiter is only useful for curiosity, education and recreational fun. So really it doesn't matter what you're flying, whether it's an entirely accurate re-creation of Apollo or a delta glider, as long as you're having fun, and maybe learning something along the way.
 
But, if a game is defined as something that is "competitive", would a combat flight simulator (IL-2, LOMAC, etc) be considered a game, rather than a simulator?
 
yeah any simulator that has competitave elements, gameplay, mission structure, online competition modes, etc is a game as well as a simulator, the two can co-exist within the same package, but it really depends on how you define 'simulator'.

I would call GT a racing simulator because it simulates the racing experience, with some gameplay elements piled on for 'fun', like winning races gives you more cash so you can buy more cars for example or you can race against other people. But the core of it is a sim and the gameplay elements are not that great and you're forced to struggle through the 'game' in order to be able to simulate the 1000bhp lemans monster that you really want to drive. I spent most of my time in that sim not racing at all, just trying to get a better time on the nordschliefer because that was more of a challenge and i found that to be fun... GT really isn't a very good game, but its a great home simulator. Online racing against other people is fantastic btw, try rFactor for a (mostly) great online racing experience.

Regarding the flight sims, i guess ms flight sim is fairly pure in terms of it's just flying for the sake of it (as i understand it, i've never flown it btw) and is truest to what simulator really is. but if you want excitement and online competition, gameplay, then go for one of the combat sims. LOMAC in particular isn't meant to be totally realistic as i understand it, (i've never played it) it's meant to be more fun and pretty than anything.

Something like IL2 or Falcon 4 is closer to a sim, as in something you could train people with. well i've never played IL2, but the way Falcon 4 simulates the aircrafts systems is very hardcore and detailed. really must have a go in Falcon 4 again sometime. If i can remember how to start the aircrafts jet engine... Falcon 4 also takes a crack at simulating an entire war, rather than just having a specific, linear mission structure which i think is more appealing to dedicated sim heads.
 
I think that Orbiter itself (without Addons), is just a simulator tool. There's nothing at all relating to a game except for the general type of program it is. It shares alot of similarities with computer games in the sense that 1) it's a program and 2) it uses DirectX for a 3D virtual environment. Like games it has a large texture and mesh repository, and content built in. This is about where the similarities end.

Game developers have one goal in mind. Entertainment. Sure some games also hinge on the educational value of some games, but in general it's just for fun.

Consider a new person sitting down to orbiter for the first time. Most game developers focus on giving you a gradually more difficult set of goals to accomplish. Games are developed to give the user everything they need to know about how to control the game, they learn in the first few 'levels' of gameplay. Even a new person can pick up the game and play it reasonably well within a few hours of usage. They want to make the gameplay as easy as possible for you. This is not the case in Orbiter.

Ok... You're in Atlantis on the Launch Pad... Your first goal is to get into orbit. Good Luck.

I'm sure there's more than a handful of people out there that have tried orbiter, but quickly just said forget about it.

The program is not developed with the intent to be easy to master.

Young Kids (5-6 years old) these days are very adept at playing video games well. There's no way a 5 year old can learn how to land on the moon to be able to do it all on their own. (Maybe a very gifted 5 year old).

Because of all these major differences, I think Orbiter is safely disqualified from the 'computer game' genre all together... Heck, the stock Orbiter doesn't even have sound? What kind of a game would that be?

Now, that's talking about Orbiter itself. There's many addons out there, and coming that do add elements of a computer game to the simulator. Many of the applications I'm working on right now add some game-like elements into the mix, but Orbiter is and forever will be in my mind as just as being an awesome rocket/flight simulator.
 
I see it as both and use it as both. But I consider it being exactly what it says ultimately, A simulator. It only becomes a game if you make it a game in your imagination with your own objectives. There's plenty of game style options with addons out there which eliminate the orbiter experience as a simulation. But Orbiter has served me way more on an educational level. I wouldn't know 25% of what I know about orbital physics and spaceflight if it weren't for Orbiter. It's a hands on learning tool. But you may stray from that purpose of course.
 
This sounds like the classification of Pluto. :whistle:
Giving Orbiter an official classification is pointless. It's best to just let each individuall call it what they want. There is no absolutely no point in arguing about others wanting to call it something that you wouldn't.

I say no more.
Liar! :)
 
Orbiter is a game, not a simulation, and not both.

Now before you all stone me to death, please be aware that in real life, my job is making computer wargames that are as historically accurate as possible. The sorts of things that grognards call "sims". But for all the effort I put into this, the result is still just a game. The players have a goal they have to achieve to win, and all the game mechanics do is provide environmental constraints on how they go about it.

In my games, the players use strategies and tactics that pit the strengths of their forces against the enemy's weaknesses, as both are defined by the game's mechanics, to destroy the enemy and accomplish their goal of winning the battle. That goal is the same whether the game's guts are realistic or not. As such, just having realistic mechanics does not stop a piece of software from being a game, even if folks call it a "sim". Perhaps "sim" is a subset of "game", but I think that's mostly a matter of ego on the part of players and game companies. To me, "sim" as used by most people is just shorthand for saying "the game has lots of historical/realistic details under the hood". A true simulation is what you use to train airline pilots, or to help plan real space missions, or to figure out the airflow around an airplane you want to build in various flight regimes. Things that have serious, non-entertainment uses. If it's entertainment, it's a game.

Now Orbiter itself is not only a game, but a puzzle game. This is because there are no badguys to fight and no points for killing them. Just getting from Point A to Point B is what the game's all about. Orbiter's puzzles fall into 2 types: "running/jumping" and "Tetris-esque". The most common is the "running/jumping" type. Can you get from Earth to Venus via Jupiter without making some fatal mistake along the way? The "Testris-esque" type is docking, especially if you're into building space stations.

Orbiter has chosen to set these puzzles against a background of realistic mechanics, but those only set the rules you have to play by (unless you have mods that change the rules). At the bottom line, though, it really doesn't matter if you're running Orbiter, or Super Mario, or Tetris--you're still just playing variations of those other games.

Now, having said all that, I MUCH prefer Orbiter to Super Mario and Tetris. I find Orbiter much more fun, because its setting and mechanics keep me from feeling like I'm being juvenile for spending time on it. But still, when it comes down to it, I'm still just playing those other games in different clothing :P
 
Sim, in the home market is just a genre of video games, thats true... a true simulator is usually something different, like i said before it depends on what you consider to be a sim. for me it's something that uses realistic physics to create an experience thats as close to reality as possible, but yeah from your point of view it can be nothing more than a game.

A True simulator should mimic every single aspect of what is being simulated, so far nothing in orbiter actually does that - if i'm wrong about that then i apologise because i haven't tried every addon out there.

Btw Bullethead, what games do you work on, could you post a link?
 
Sim, in the home market is just a genre of video games, thats true...

Exactly, guys you really shouldnt be offended at the sound of "Orbiter is a game", it is a game, but the genre it falls under is simulation.
Since orbiter and FS are a lot alike im going to use this example.
If I walk into Best Buy looking for FS 2004, I wouldnt walk to a section tittled "Simulators".
I would walk to the one titled "Games", then look for it alphabetically.
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You really cant say you are using orbiter just as a tool, you are also using it as a game. You dont come home from work and play orbiter because your boss told you to. You play it because you like to, its fun for you.
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Also "and play orbiter". Thats word play makes it a game right off the bat.
If you was really using it as a tool you would say "I am training using Orbiter" or "Im fixing to go train on Orbiter"
 
Well, all valid arguments. However, to answer the question- "What do you think Orbiter is?"...

Orbiter is AWESOME!

'nuff said.
 
Yes, classification not a prerequisite of being awesome. I'm not, nor i'm sure is anyone offended if it's called a game, and sure most simulators are classed as games.

And what about software like STK... http://www.stk.com/

This software sells to nasa, military, national security and other agencies for tens of thousands of dollars. I'm sure no one is going to call that a game... What makes it different from orbiter? Nothing really, except it's much more developed and does alot more. Just food for thought.
 
You really cant say you are using orbiter just as a tool, you are also using it as a game. You dont come home from work and play orbiter because your boss told you to. You play it because you like to, its fun for you.
Says who? There was a guy on these forums not long ago from Lockhead-Martin looking to use Orbiter as a tool for his project. Sounds like he is using it as a sim to me.

Conversely, if I had the money and inclination (no pun intended), I could buy the aforementioned Satellite Tool Kit and develop my own addons for it, just like I do with Orbiter. Does that make STK a game because I am using it for entertainment?

Some of us use Orbiter as a simulator, some as a game, some as both. It is naive and arrogant to presume how others will (or should) use and perceive the software. For me, Orbiter is both game-like and simulator-like and the degree of membership to those categories varies with how I use it. There are no black and whites here and there is no need to create a false dichotomy between games and simulators. BTW, I highly recommend some reading on Prototype Theory and fuzzy sets.

EDIT:
I think Orbiter is turning into something, for example someone released a add-on with a flying beer bottle, thats just stupid.
Well, the Bottle Ship by lumpiluk has some 100 downloads, so it is unlikely to be about to define Orbiter. Notwithstanding that, I used another of lumpiluk's vessels, the Lego Brick, when I needed a phantom vessel for trajectory design for the Ananke momentum exchange tether. Because it was a phantom vessel I wanted something that was simple and obviously not realistic. It worked like a charm and in doing so it made at least two Orbitnauts happy - nothing stupid about that.
 
Seriously guys, I would love to continue to argue about this, but I can tell that its starting the get heated. Im gonna go ahead and stop before I get in trouble. But yall go ahead and have at it. :)
 
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