Flight Question Why should I change inc. only at nodes?

qubolo

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I've got a question. its very impportant to me.
because i always want to understand what am i doing :D

question is:

why the orbital inclination change is most efficient at burn at nodes????

why we cannot simply push orbital plane a 90 degree up or down in any point?


i ve read a lot about this and there were the things i already know. for ex: least deltaV is used while changing inclination when low speed ( in apoapsis)
 
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the nodes are the points where you plane crosses the target's plane... by performing the burns near them, you eliminate the (possibly very large) angular distance between your ship and the closest point in the target plane - and by doing so, all the delta-V required will be just what's needed to alter your flight direction


think about it... if your orbit was a looooong highway running a [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_circle"]great-circle[/ame] around the earth, and the target's as well, but in a different angle, there would be two points where you could take the detour onto the target "road" - those would be: the nodes :hmm:


anywhere else, there would be a lot of ground between you and even the closest point on the target "road" :thumbup:


that's why we burn at the nodes!
 
OH! now I understand :D i was just simply wrong by thinking that nodes are sticked to the desired plane! by performing burns away from the nodes we could change the placement of nodes... thats why sometimes they are turning around :D eureka!

Thanks for explaining.
 
I have a similar question about changing plane. Let's say I want to align with a base on the ground (that is of course not in Orbit), where is the best place to do the burn, because there is not AN and DN on the Align MFD...?

Second part, is it normal for the align burn for a big alignment (let's say like goin from ISS to Mir) to have impact on the ApA and PeA? By impact I mean I can end up with a different orbit of 200 km + of what I originally had...

Thanks!
 
the best place to align with any ground target is 90 degrees away...

notice how your ascending and descending nodes (targeting equator) have both zero lattitude... the highest and lowest points are between them, right?

now, since the nodes are 180 degrees apart, the "highest" points are by consequence, 90 degrees away from the nodes....

so from this dirty example, we can conclude that for every plane change, regardless of current position and heading, the points which are affected greatest by the burn, are those 90 degrees away from wherever said burn occurs....

with a fixed target, this makes things much simpler for us - for maximum delta-v economy, do you base alignment burns 90 degrees away from them :thumbup:



but, it's not always THAT simple... we're in orbit, there's gotta be a catch... the earth is, as we all (most of us) know, spinning.... with that, your orbital plane will change in relation to the ground below - did you ever notice how orbital planes tend to "walk" to the west? - this is why that happens:hmm:


ok.... now what? -- i can't figure this out by head....


me neither


i use BaseSync MFD - check the hangar and DL, it's failry simple to use :thumbup:



-- and in theory, no, plane changes shouldn't affect your ApA or PeA.... check your nose attitude, or use the autopilot - also remember that ships like the shuttle have their thrusters tilted, so this needs compensation....
and there's always the "what da hell?" effect...
 
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As for the "now what", it's a matter of figuring how far the planet will rotate (and thus, the base will move) before you get to the surface, and so descend to where the base will be.

However on Earth, there's a thick atmosphere that makes things more complicated. Fortunately that same atmosphere can give us cross-range, so with winged vessels, we can fly to make up for that. :thumbup:

AerobrakeMFD (also on the hangar) helps in that respect, since OrbitMFD doesn't take atmospheres into account.

But there is always the "what da hell?" effect. :lol:
Happy Orbiting! :hail::probe:
 
-- and in theory, no, plane changes shouldn't affect your ApA or PeA.... check your nose attitude, or use the autopilot - also remember that ships like the shuttle have their thrusters tilted, so this needs compensation....
and there's always the "what da hell?" effect...

I beg to differ, and why is... difficult to explain. It makes sense in my head, though.

Picture you're at an Inclination of zero, moving at exactly 7,500 meters a second. Now, the autopilots will tell you to burn facing Normal or Anti-normal. Lets use Normal as our example - so now you burn. Let's say you adjust your velocity in that direction by a large number of degrees... You do this, by adding movement in that direction. Now lets say that degree of change correlates to 250 meters a second. Seems small in comparison...

But now your velocity along your PATH OF TRAVEL, is now 7504 meters a second... (A squared, B squared, C squared)

It's a small change, sure. But lets say you're making a large plane change... That number adds up. Because your speed is faster, you'll find suddenly your ApA increases.

To aggravate this fact, most people do such large burns on time acceleration. This means that the autopilot is less effective, often lagging behind a degree or two from Normal or Anti-normal.

The end result, either way, is that not ALL of your expended Delta-V is being used to change planes. Some of it, the waste, is effecting your ApA (and possibly your PeA, but I can't recall ever experiencing that).
 
I beg to differ, and why is... difficult to explain. It makes sense in my head, though.

Picture you're at an Inclination of zero, moving at exactly 7,500 meters a second. Now, the autopilots will tell you to burn facing Normal or Anti-normal. Lets use Normal as our example - so now you burn. Let's say you adjust your velocity in that direction by a large number of degrees... You do this, by adding movement in that direction. Now lets say that degree of change correlates to 250 meters a second. Seems small in comparison...

But now your velocity along your PATH OF TRAVEL, is now 7504 meters a second... (A squared, B squared, C squared)

It's a small change, sure. But lets say you're making a large plane change... That number adds up. Because your speed is faster, you'll find suddenly your ApA increases.

To aggravate this fact, most people do such large burns on time acceleration. This means that the autopilot is less effective, often lagging behind a degree or two from Normal or Anti-normal.

The end result, either way, is that not ALL of your expended Delta-V is being used to change planes. Some of it, the waste, is effecting your ApA (and possibly your PeA, but I can't recall ever experiencing that).

If the thrust is applied in a perfectly normal/antinormal direction, it will NOT change the amount of your velocity - just the direction of your velocity. However, many vessels are not perfectly aligned, including the stock DG.

Vessels have three axis, and the Center of Gravity is assumed (unless the vessel module deliberately changes it) to be located at the Origin (ie, x, y, and z all equal to zero). The Z axis is the "fore/aft" axis, and the Y axis is the "up/down" (from the vessel's point of view) axis.

Thrust is applied at a certain point (this may be an "average" of several individual thrust points). It this point is not at x=0 and y=0, and the thrust vector is aligned with the Z axis, then the vessel would be "unbalanced" and applying thrust would cause the vessel to rotate since the thrust vector wouldn't pass through the COG. When the thrust point isn't at x=0 and y=0, the thrust vector is ussually NOT aligned with the z axis, but with an axis that passes through both the thrust point and the COG. However, the stock autopilots use the z axis as the reference. This means that the even though you have the Normal AP engaged, the actual thrust vector isn't perfectly aligned with the Normal direction.

The stock DG, for instance, has it's thrust point a bit above zero on the y axis, and the thrust vector points slightly "below" the Z axis. Since the AP orients the vessel "belly forward", this means a slight amount of the thrust is in the prograde direction. This causes the vessel to gain a bit of velocity, raising the orbital altitude at the opposite side of the orbit. This can be somewhat mitigated by using the Horizon Level AP, and manually pointing the nose in the normal/antinormal direction. A small amount of thrust will be in the "down" direction, but the change to your Ap and Pe will be less than the change caused by using the Normal/Normal- AP.

The stock Shuttle-A is aligned better, and doesn't suffer this problem. IIRC, the DG-IV and XR series vessels have the thrust vector aligned with the Z axis as well, and you won't see the same change in velocity when using the Normal/Normal- AP's as you do with the stock DG.
 
Thanks Tommy, you really read my mind! I was using the Stock DG for training and I was wondering why I was always screwing up my orbit alt.
There are sooo many things to know in orbiter! And I like it!
 
now i have a question about low velocity in apoapsis. If that so, then we should find placing apoapsis near to one of the nodes- very interesting. Then less fuel will be needed to change plane.

am i thinking right?

and is it more efficient to change eccentricity to near 1 (or less) and then change plane when speed in apoapsis is very low?
 
now i have a question about low velocity in apoapsis. If that so, then we should find placing apoapsis near to one of the nodes- very interesting. Then less fuel will be needed to change plane.

am i thinking right?

Yep - you're right. In fact in terms of fuel conservation somtimes it's better to raise AP and make plane aligment burn at AP placed in the node and then lower it to previous level.

and is it more efficient to change eccentricity to near 1 (or less) and then change plane when speed in apoapsis is very low?

For big plane changes yes (RInc like 30-50degrees) . For small you'll burn much more fuel to raise AP that high that whole manuevere becomes illogical.
 
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