Soyuz Lunar Mission

[Thorton]

Oh, looks like we desperately need something like KVRB tug

 

[Urwumpe]

Oh, looks like we desperately need something like KVRB tug

Yeah... but is it realistic technology? :lol:

 

[Thorton]

That BlockDM2 docks the DM5/Fregat stack in LEO, and we send the whole (DM2/DM5/Fregat stack) towards the Moon.

Sorry, i didnt get this, why do we need full DM5/Fregat stack on the Moons orbit?

Yeah... but is it realistic technology?

In theory :blink:

 

[Urwumpe]

In theory :blink:

Isn't the Indian GSLV the only rocket that uses technology from the KVRB project currently?

 

[N_Molson]

At this point I'm a little lost in the Russian terminology... So please correct me, there is :

- Block DM-5 (17S40) : mass(Dry) = 3,300 kg ; mass(Gross) = 14,600 kg
- Block DM-2 (11S861) : mass(Dry) = 2,300 kg ; mass(Gross) = 17,300 kg
- Block DM-2M (11S861-01) : mass(Dry) = 2,650 kg ; mass(Gross) = 18,650 kg

I got those numbers from Astronautix

Also, these figures don't match the data used by Throton in "Proton LV". Where's the truth ?

 

[SiberianTiger]

At this point I'm a little lost in the Russian terminology... So please correct me, there is :

- Block DM-5 (17S40) : mass(Dry) = 3,300 kg ; mass(Gross) = 14,600 kg
- Block DM-2 (11S861) : mass(Dry) = 2,300 kg ; mass(Gross) = 17,300 kg
- Block DM-2M (11S861-01) : mass(Dry) = 2,650 kg ; mass(Gross) = 18,650 kg

I got those numbers from Astronautix

Also, these figures don't match the data used by Throton in "Proton LV". Where's the truth ?

DM-5 is supposed to be the same thing as DM2; But DM-2 is different from DM2... Hope it makes sense...

 

[N_Molson]

This adds even more confusion :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Block-DM

:idk:

 

[Thorton]

Oops

Seems there is an error in fuel definition section of Dm tug, accidentally i set 17300 kg for fuel mass. sorry

 

[N_Molson]

I often get confused between "Gross Mass" and "Propellant Mass" too... :tiphat:

 

[Thorton]

Ok, just did quick test and have following results:
Proton put DM/Fregat stack on 209*140 orbit with 51.6 inc (it could be minimized to 48!, DM has been fixed and now have m0=2300, m_fuel = 15000 kg). After cilcularization burn there was 12400 kg of fuel in DM.

2-burns TLI gives me 477*400000 orbit and 1100 kg of fuel remains in the Fregat.

Then I took LOI scenario from AMSO and inserted my stack there. I was able to get on the lunar orbit with big ecc 132*6700.

So there is no fuel for TEI and not enough even for lunar orbit circularization.

 

[DanM]

You mistake surface gravity acceleration for the standard gravitational parameter of Earth, with is 398600.0 km³/s² (if you use kilometers as unit of distance). It is the product of universal gravity constant with the mass of Earth.

Wow, now I need to do a lot over again...

 

[Urwumpe]

So there is no fuel for TEI and not enough even for lunar orbit circularization.

So this would need to come from somewhere else... if the Soyuz would need to do LOI and TEI, we would need alone 1400 m/s dV in it, plus fuel for one rendezvous and mid course corrections.

Would it be bad to do more launches?

Or use the ISS for outfitting a stored Soyuz over multiple launches and with EVA/Robotic assembly to become capable of the lunar landing mission?

 

[N_Molson]

Would it be bad to do more launches?

Certainly not !

I'm confident we'll find a way, even if we must launch 20 Proton rockets !!

The only thing we have to take care with multiple launches is the availability of the launchpads. As far as I know, there are 3 (or 4 ?) operational Proton pads and 2 operational Soyuz pads in Baïkonur.

@Thornton : can we hope a fix for the BlockDM ?

 

[Urwumpe]

Hmm... thorton, how utopic does it sound to have an assembly building at the proton launch site, in which the player could (like in the scenario editor) select payload(s), upper stage, fairing, etc and which would then assemble a Proton launcher with the select options, and permit (on command) to transport the launcher to the launch site, erect it and bring the transport rail car back to the integration building while the rocket sits on the pad and gets enclosed by the service structure?

 

[Wishbone]

...while also managing the s/c and LV delivery by rail from Moscow, Omsk, Krasnoyarsk, Samara. A real-life allowance of C2H5OH for pipeline cleaning purposes would be v.much appreciated. <g>

Seriously, the amount of tinkering with scen files is substantial, and I at least contemplate some way of on-line editing of launch guidance files...

 

[Urwumpe]

Seriously, the amount of tinkering with scen files is substantial, and I at least contemplate some way of on-line editing of launch guidance files...

Yes, but having a scenario file for each phase reduces the risk a lot, since you then don't lose a mission by wasting fuel for the previous stages.

 

[Thorton]

Ok, did some test on LLO and can say that we need full Fregat to perform LOI and TEI, assuming that MCC at the way back and would be done by Soyuz engine.

So, we have quantum - "Fregat-Soyuz" which should be put on translunar trajectory, apart from KVRB, any ideas how???

Hmm... thorton, how utopic does it sound to have....

Unbelievable utopic, i should say. I'm not sure i can do something like this at all.

A real-life allowance of C2H5OH for pipeline cleaning purposes would be v.much appreciated.

Beer would be OK too

 

[Urwumpe]

So, we have quantum - "Fregat-Soyuz" which should be put on translunar trajectory, apart from KVRB, any ideas how???

The Soyuz A circumlunar concept rewarmed to launch a larger Block-DM with fregat only partially fueled, and refuel the stage in Orbit, for example by a TKS derived vehicle?

Unbelievable utopic, i should say. I'm not sure i can do something like this at all.

Damn. That means we need to stockpile fitting rockets. I know how to do that in my projects, but not sure how to make this apply to your project.

 

[Thorton]

The Soyuz A circumlunar concept rewarmed to launch a larger Block-DM with fregat only partially fueled, and refuel the stage in Orbit, for example by a TKS derived vehicle?

My tests have shown that it would be enough to have DM+Fregat for circumlunar flight.
However i'm interested at least in expediton to the lunar orbit. Just dont see any sense in flyby.

 

[Urwumpe]

My tests have shown that it would be enough to have DM+Fregat for circumlunar flight.
However i'm interested at least in expediton to the lunar orbit. Just dont see any sense in flyby.

Yes, I don't mean the destination, but rather the coarse mission profile.. for landing on the moon, but instead of launching a completely fueled Block DM, leave it mostly empty.

---------- Post added at 07:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:33 PM ----------

How much dV would we get by using the proposed Block I for the Soyuz-2 launcher? With the bigger diameter? Just hypothetically speaking.