Gun Debate Discussion

Like I said above: Out of the same logic that permits the ownership of guns for defense, we should be permitted nuclear weapons for defense as well.

It is maybe an argument ad adsurdum, but it shows pretty well, that defense alone isn't the real purpose. It is about power. The power to do something that even God does not even dare: Kill somebody from afar. From a safe distance. Without a chance to defend.

And even more: You can already kill somebody without any kind of training with it, because the gun does the thinking for you there. A knife requires some serious skills or effort for killing a person, and it is pretty hard to do that without getting in risk of injury yourself.
 
True, but I'm pretty sure that the number 1 trend in guns over the past few hundred years has been a steady increase in overall lethality. A gun is essentially a glorified pipe which can contain a lot of pressure for a short time, but that setup is what allows it to do damage.

A brick is heavy, and that is what allows it to do damage... I can also evolve a brick as to achieve a steady increase in lethality... ;)

Mind you, most of the actual weapon advances in the last 100 years have been about tactical superiority and ease of use. Now, sure, that translates to higher lethality, but that still depends on the operator...

And although it is of course the wielder's decision and responsibility as to what he does with the gun, why should he/she be given that responsibility?

Maybe because most people are not criminals, and the world should not be a Big Brother state...

Like I said above: Out of the same logic that permits the ownership of guns for defense, we should be permitted nuclear weapons for defense as well.

I'm not sure, I can't agree or disagree with you. In places where law enforcement is incompetent and armed crime is rampant, personal protection- if properly conducted- might make more sense.

I have heard multiple stories of people using firearms for protection against criminals and succeeding in one way or another, although I agree that unskilled gung-ho -ism is in all probability going to get you killed.

Sadly the best option here during a home invasion (a warranted terminology when multiple armed criminals breaking into houses and holding the inhabitants hostage while they make off with valuables is a popular crime trend) here is to cooperate, and obviously an attempt to play Rambo with such attackers is undeniably stupid.

A knife requires some serious skills or effort for killing a person, and it is pretty hard to do that without getting in risk of injury yourself.

What about quietly sneaking up behind someone and slitting their jugular vein and/or carotid artery? :shifty:
 
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Ok, just playing with a few numbers here (look down for my sources):

In America, there are about 300,000,000 people (rounded down a bit to simplify stuff). In the UK, there are about 60,000,000.

In the UK in 2007, there were 59 gun-related deaths. Since there are about 5 times more people in the USA than in the UK, that scales up to about 300 deaths a year. There were 507 serious injuries from guns that year. Again, scaled up, that could mean 2500 serious injuries a year in the USA. Also in the UK, there were 757 homicides. That would be about 4500 in the USA.

I know that these figures have no basis in the reality of what America's really like (i.e. different culture, different ethnic groups, probably more organised crime, etc etc), but I'm using them to show that guns in America are, in my view, out of control.

Now let's look at the actual numbers for America. In 2007, there were 12,632 deaths from guns in the USA. There were 18,361 homicides overall.

These figures show that murder overall (and especially murders with guns) are vastly inflated compared to the UK, even when population differences are taken into account. So my conclusions are this: America has a real screw loose when it comes to crime and guns. If you want to argue that the discrepancy between the observed and expected frequencies for homicides (and gun homicides) are due to the legality of guns in America (and that by extension people should be given more guns), I have the following things to say:

1) Let's say you have two populations. The people of population #1 are not allowed to own lethal projectile weapons, and as a consequence there aren't very many of these weapons floating around there. The people of population #2 are allowed to own them, and indeed many of them do. #2 has a far higher homicide rate than #1, especially where this particular type of weapon is concerned. QUESTION: You want to reduce the number of homicides in #2 to a level equivalent to that in #1. What do you do?

2) I'm not able to support this quote with any statistics, and I'm pulling it straight off [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States]Wikipedia[/ame], and it could very well be wrong (but I'm using it anyway, since it's worth thinking about): "Due to the lethal potential that a gun brings to a situation, the likelihood that a death will result is significantly increased when either the victim or the attacker has a firearm.[38] The mortality rate for gunshot wounds to the heart is 84%, compared to 30% for people who sustain stab wounds to the heart."




I'd also like to throw in this link, in addition to the ones below. I haven't checked to see that it's correct, but the numbers look about right, and I have no reason to think they're not correct: http://life.familyeducation.com/school-safety-month/violence/29712.html

Sources:
For the UK:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6960431.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/17_07_07_crime.pdf
http://rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs08/hosb0308.pdf

For the USA:
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm
 
What about quietly sneaking up behind someone and slitting their jugular vein and/or carotid artery? :shifty:

Life is not Hollywood, there are many ways how you can even do that wrong. ;)

---------- Post added at 03:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:29 PM ----------

What do you do?

Give them more guns and bigger guns, make gun subsidies, afforded by cutting health insurance costs, especially for injuries caused by gunfire. Also I remove all sports except sports with shooting in it, unpatriotic music and pornography. But permit lots of alcohol.

Then I wait 15 years. I then throw the sole survivor in prison for "crimes against humanity" and let a few people of the other population do the rebuilding.
 
Life is not Hollywood, there are many ways how you can even do that wrong.

Ok, I give up then. How about dropping a crate of knives onto someone from a high place? :P

This is getting evil now... :rolleyes:
 
Ok, I give up then. How about dropping a crate of knives onto someone from a high place? :P

If the place is high enough, a stable crate would be enough.
 
Comparing the UK to the US is, frankly, useless. First of all, how much gun-related crime was there in the UK before the ban? Did citizens abuse their weapons? No. The UK never had a history of firearms-related crime. Then the Dunblane massacre happened and the UK government reacted in the usual knee-jerk way which is now plagueing Western governments everywhere (Someone shoots a gun? BAN GUNS! Someone may take liquid explosives on a plane? BAN LIQUIDS ON PLANES! Someone may use cryptography to hide criminal stuff? RIP ACT! Kids are noisy! SLAP THEM WITH AN ASBO!)

Crime is a social and not a technological problem. However, it's far easier to corral your populace in an ever-tightening fence than seeing what's going wrong. The latest scare in the UK are knives, when exactly is the government going to take a hard look at the situation and say "well, if so many young people think that turning to crime is an option, we're doing something wrong"? I guess never, they'll probably propose curfews for the youth. Hey, they're already doing a good job preventing them from accessing higher education, why not go the full monty and send them directly from kindergarten to Dartmoor?
 
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Comparing the UK to the US is, frankly, useless. First of all, how much gun-related crime was there in the UK before the ban? Did citizens abuse their weapons? No. The UK never had a history of firearms-related crime. Then the Dunblane massacre happened and the UK government reacted in the usual knee-jerk way which is now plagueing Western governments everywhere (Someone shoots a gun? BAN GUNS! Someone may take liquid explosives on a plane? BAN LIQUIDS ON PLANES! Someone may use cryptography to hide criminal stuff? RIP ACT! Kids are noisy! SLAP THEM WITH AN ASBO!)

Crime is a social and not a technoligical problem. However, it's far easier to corral your populace in an ever-tightening fence than seeing what's going wrong. The latest scare in the UK are knives, when exactly is the government going to take a hard look at the situation and say "well, if so many young people think that turning to crime is an option, we're doing something wrong"? I guess never, they'll probably propose curfews for the youth. Hey, they're already doing a good job preventing them from accessing higher education, why not go the full monty and send them directly from kindergarten to Dartmoor?

Giving people largely unrestricted and free access to guns is still not the right answer.

Whether it's a knee-jerk reaction or not, guns are still lethal weapons which can be used, as already said, to kill someone from a distance with little immediate threat to yourself, and whilst giving your target a minimal chance of defending or protecting themselves.

And no, banning guns isn't the answer. Regulating guns, and instilling in children (since today's toddlers in America will probably be carrying the guns 20 years from now) a sense of responsibility and perhaps even a respect for life would be at the very least a step in the right direction.
 
And no, banning guns isn't the answer. Regulating guns, and instilling in children (since today's toddlers in America will probably be carrying the guns 20 years from now) a sense of responsibility and perhaps even a respect for life would be at the very least a step in the right direction.

Which is exactly what I've always proposed: mandatory - but free - training for gun owners, safety training for young people (there are Young Shooters' clubs in Switzerland, they do a darn good job with it). For those who carry, some sensitivity training on gunshot wounds would be nice, it's not mandatory here but I managed to get as much exposition to this kind of stuff as I could because the question I wanted to ask myself before deciding to carry is "can I bring myself to do this to another human?"

Don't know how it is in the US, but in Switzerland you can go to the range and fire a weapon at about 10, with parents and instructors there to assist. It may be surprising to some, but a lot of kids actually crave responsability and will take their safety measures very seriously. It gets them respect (which they need) from themselves, their peers and adults.

As I have stated to the point of inducing nausea, responsability is the key. I'd rather run the risk and have my fellow citizens armed (I already run the risk of having them driving) then have them treated as a bunch of fools always on the verge of endangering themselves and the others.

By the way, a vote is a weapon. It's one of the most powerful. If your PM does something that endangers other countries, if he puts me at risk with some international blunder, do I get to take it on you who voted him in? Of course I do. If 1000000 people light a fuse to a bomb, they're all responsible for it.

Nice point about the nukes, but there's a little problem there: gun fire is directed at a target, nukes and all explosives are area weapons. I can control where my rifle bullet will go, but the shrapnel from my hand grenade is another matter.
 
You also have many cases of children being killed by perfectly healthy dogs, which just got trained by their owners into aggressive combat machines. Often not intentionally, but by pure ignorance for the nature of dogs.

Shooting the dogs is often the last resort, in my opinion, shooting the owners of such maltreated dogs first would be better, but hey, these are civilized times now.

I agree that you should only use whatever power is necessary to defend yourself. If yelling is enough, then stop there. It's just nice to have more options IF yelling or running is not an option. Safety first :)



Kill somebody from afar. From a safe distance. Without a chance to defend.

And even more: You can already kill somebody without any kind of training with it, because the gun does the thinking for you there. A knife requires some serious skills or effort for killing a person, and it is pretty hard to do that without getting in risk of injury yourself.

And that is exactly the reason why the gun is much better than a knife for self-defense. You say yourself that using a knife is hard and the risk of self-injury is high. If I'm attacked I want the best and safest option to defend myself before actually being injured by the attacker. If that means shooting from a safe distance then how can that be considered a bad thing unless you want to safe-guard the attacker before the victim?
 
And that is exactly the reason why the gun is much better than a knife for self-defense. You say yourself that using a knife is hard and the risk of self-injury is high. If I'm attacked I want the best and safest option to defend myself before actually being injured by the attacker. If that means shooting from a safe distance then how can that be considered a bad thing unless you want to safe-guard the attacker before the victim?

It is the same kind of argument as if you would say: Why should somebody really learn piloting, if autopilots can do it all?

The gun is the autopilot. You point it at your target and press a button. The pilot training equivalent is learning to defend yourself in varying levels of force, not just by autopilot, but by having proper options for every situation that you need to control.

Like said before, I have nothing against guns if employed by people who have had the proper training. But I think they are a huge safety hazard and crime risk in the hands of people who just know how to employ the autopilot.
 
Like said before, I have nothing against guns if employed by people who have had the proper training. But I think they are a huge safety hazard and crime risk in the hands of people who just know how to employ the autopilot.

Wish it were so simple...
You can miss your target from 3 meters with a rifle, it happens. And pistols are far less of a precision tool, it takes training and discipline and the ability to keep your cool under pressure (which is covered by training and required in the exams). By the way, the ability of keeping cool under pressure is valuable and it's a good thing to have.

Then again, most people (at least, law-abiding people) have a HUGE thing against killing other humans which is both good and bad: good because even with a magic "press button to erase from existance" the vast majority of us will elect not to use it, bad because even in a life-and-death situation one can hesitate and end up the worse for it.

Firearms are very good for self defence in respect to knives and other melee weapons because they're force equalizers: the 9-feet ubergorilla has exactly the same chances as the paraplegic midget with one, and moreover ONE firearm can hold at bay multiple threats. You can't do it with a knife or baton or sword or even axe.

As for options, I'm a great believer in elastic defence. You can't rely on your weapon, which is only a tool. The main weapon is inside your skull, and in your ability to recognize and avoid threats in the first place, think of a way out, and if possible use other means to achieve your objective. I don't personally know a single gun owner who only relies on their weapons for home defence (normally they end up with MORE passive defences just to keep their boomsticks safe). I carry OC as well as my sidearm, because I like having multiple options.

My point is that I prefer to have options, rather than have someone else deciding which options I should limit myself to. Firearms are part of a bigger equation. And why do we always think about defence? Most gun owners around here only shoot their weapons at the range for fun and competition, and the idea of firing on a human being would horrify 9 out of 10 of them. Why should we treat them as dangerous sociopaths?
 
Brave Sir Robin was right... Run, Forrest, run...

One consideration - if you're assaulted by somebody in a dark corner, chances are you're outnumbered... Not valiant or samurai-like, I know, but am a big believer in Lanchester...
 
One consideration - if you're assaulted by somebody in a dark corner, chances are you're outnumbered... Not valiant or samurai-like, I know, but am a big believer in Lanchester...

Of course, but why were you in that dark corner without night-vision goggles, silenced UMP with IR laser sights and a gunship circling above your head?

There's a good practice in martial arts (the practical side of them): your goal is to get out of the fight alive, if running achieves that, run. And if you're in a riot, hit the ground and crawl to the nearest cover.

Shame they don't let me carry Ninja smokebombs...
 
Why should we treat them as dangerous sociopaths?

Lets play devils advocate*: because people who need very lethal weapons as sports gear despite non-lethal or less lethal weapons being a perfect replacement in the same sport, are in our definition of the word, of course dangerous sociopaths. They put their own interests above others and can't understand objections of their environment, essentially using the sports only as fig leaf. They endanger many people for fun.

Why not store such weapons at the shooting range, or at least only have ammo available there? The argument will be: Because it will then be easier to steal huge amounts of ammo. of course, the counter argument is, that such huge amounts of ammo are also easier defended then.

So, aren't we really talking about dangerous sociopaths then? Sure they don't feel like it and don't want to be called such names. But they sure don't do such weapon ownership or variants of a sport for the better of the society, but sabotage their society for their own interests.

For example: Does any statistic exist, how many of the reservist ammo packs are stolen by burglary? I am sure it is easier accounted as ammo owned by other ways. Or how many army rifles are lost afterwards? Additionally to ammo smuggling being easier than weapon smuggling, because ammo is easier hidden.

* Disclaimer: That this view is not balanced and not NPOV is intentional, and does not represent the opinion of the author. It is a contribution to a discussion, that should provoke thought. If your thoughts now consist of personal attacks against the author, feel at least happy of being a valuable contribution to the argument.
 
You've forgotten about good old 82mm's and your buddy covering you with a machine gun.
 
And if you're in a riot, hit the ground and crawl to the nearest cover.

Being crawling in a riot is the best way to get serious injury by friendly kicks. Better crapwalk out of it as much as you can, so ambulance has a better chance of finding you before those people who had been in the center of the mess.
 
Being crawling in a riot is the best way to get serious injury by friendly kicks.

Of course, when I hit the ground I tend to take very large leaps...

About the storing weapons at the ranges (or in arsenals): keeping a weapon home makes it the personal responsability of the owner. Guns must be properly stored and maintained even if you don't shoot them, having to cover kilometers to do that each and every time is a bit of an unfair workload on people who only happen to be competitive shooters rather than football players.

At this point, why should we let archers keep their bows at home? A bow is not less lethan than a firearm.

Ammunition: here, you don't bring ammo to the range, you buy it there (and here lies another antigun argument: it's easy for someone to pilfer a round if one is determined, and the fact that it doesn't happen should tell a lot about shooters' discipline) because only military ammunition is allowed and you cannot buy it at your gun shop (little badly kept secret here: you CAN fire .223 Remington ammo in the Stgw90 but forget about it if you're interested in getting a good score at the range, the ballistics differ from proper GP90).

There have been contradictory reports about army weapons stolen from homes, which have found to be misplaced (I would retire the culprits from service and fine them heavily for that) but so far the biggest weapons theft has been in an Army structure, some 6 years ago if I remember correctly.

The devil's arguments you brought are sound, but can be employed to attack many other activities like car racing and even videogame playing (and in the latter case they are). I can counteract by stating that in the real world, shooters are more disciplined than car drivers and happen to be far less dangerous.
We could argue that football fans should be, theorically, the most benign, good-natured and kind people in the world since football is - by its rules - a very nonviolent sport. Reality, alas, paints a different picture...

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You've forgotten about good old 82mm's and your buddy covering you with a machine gun.

81mm here. Trained as mortar observer when paying rank. :)

Ah, the good old MG51... Way better than that Dinky Toy-looking Minimi IMHO.
 
Wow. I'm gone for a few days and look how many pages get generated!

Thanks to the mods for moving my earlier posts to this thread - where they are at least on topic.

I'll try to cover a few of the issues others have raised, but don't want to do a lot of quoting on the kid's netbook (no mouse, and the pointing device sucks).

I do not support concealed carry for "just anyone who can legally own a gun". Special training in both firearms usage and general conflict resolution should be required. You should have a real reason - such as you carry large sums (making deposits from a business, for example), not just "because". The truth is that an under-trained person who carries a gun is LESS likely to find a non-violent solution to a conflict. Having a gun tends to make under-trained people feel brave - stupidly brave in some cases. They won't exercise common sense safety practices like not flashing a big wad of cash, or going to dangerous neighborhoods (even though they don't have any real reason to go there in the first place). The proposed concealed carry law here in Wisconsin is just stupid. It has almost no training requirement - and you would still need to have the weapon unloaded and cased before you could have it in your car (this makes the law useless for enabling gun carry as a defensive stategy fo the people who actually have a legitimate need to carry).

I'm not against having to get a permit to own a gun (such as the FOID card in Illinois - but object to registering individual firearms. Should such a file get into the hands of a criminal (and it enevitably will) it becomes a "shopping list" for thieves. Should the Government enact an unconstitutional ban it can use that list to confiscate the guns - before the Supreme Court can overturn the ban.

I'm pretty sure there were people in Arizona who had guns when the senator was shot - there will have been police present if nothing else. The reason people didn't use them wasn't the fear that they would be mistaken for criminals - it was because in a crowd like that there's no way to get a "clear shot". Keep in mind that a "clear shot" doesn't just mean that there is no-one BETWEEN you and the target, but also that no-one is BEHIND the target. Trying to shoot the gunman in a crowd like that would have been the epitome of irresponsibility.

Even on of the US's most rabid pro-gun organisations, the NRA, doesn't support completely unrestricted gun ownership, and have lobbied for years in favor of a comprehensive training course be made available to regular citizens. Currently, simulators and other tools required for effective "shoot - don't shoot" training are restricted to law enforcement/military use only.

As for the comment that hunting is "dying out", you clearly don't live around here. It is NOT a way of "depleting" wildlife - it is a way to MANAGE wildlife. We've reduced habitate for wild animals drastically, and eliminated most natural predators (which tend to be dangerous to people and livestock) so method of managing wildlife levels is required. Or would you rather let thousand of animals starve? In areas where hunting is banned, several thousands of dollars per year are spent for "snipers" - and the meat goes to waste. Isn't it better to allow trained hunters (and you need to be trained in hunter safety to get a hunting license) to pay for the priveledge of managing wildlife levels - and having the meat feed people (thousands of pounds of game meat is provided by hunters to food banks for the poor) rather than spend tax money to have the meat wasted?
 
A bow is not less lethal than than a firearm.


I would beg to differ. It has a lower chance of being as lethal as a gun.

Not counting crossbows. They're just as impassionate a weapon as a gun but taking some of what I have written below into account, still potentially less lethal.

You can often see an arrow coming. Giving you a fractionally better chance of avoiding it.
It takes a slightly more time and more effort for the archer to draw an arrow, aim and loose at a target.
A bow, and its arrows are more difficult to conceal. You can get very powerful, small composite bows that could be hidden, but to do so effectively they would need to be un-strung first. For a criminal to string a bow, select an arrow, draw, aim and loose..... I stand a good chance of rugby tackling him to the floor, or if I'm too far away, giving it legs. Retreating, diagonally and very very quickly. Soon enough I will be at a range where the arrow's lethality will be negligible. With a dense, heavy bullet fired at 10 times the speed I'll be in the danger zone for much longer.
The archer has got to account for a more difficult trajectory than a gun. The affects of the wind will be stronger. A lone archer has a vanishingly small chance of hitting a moving target hell bent on not being hit.
Bullets, especially non jacketed rounds can have a tendancy to fragment and ricochet if hitting bone and cause much more damage in the surrounding tissue. Arrows can fracture or snap. But they travel at speeds that wil not usually send those fragments into other parts of the body.
Arrows do not cause great internal pressure waves when it hits flesh. An exit wound with an arrow is often a good thing. Makes it easier to extract.
Arrows maintain their aerodynamic shape throughout the penetration of the body. Yes some cultures' arrowheads are designed to break off in the wound and that can also happen by accident. But the point is, historically in such cases death normally follows after days of suppuration then finally succumbing to infection. With today's surgery and antibiotics you're far less likely to die that way.
Most arrows nowadays are used for target sport and therefore the most easily obtained. They have very narrow heads and would go straight through flesh with minimal resistance. Chances of injuring a vital artery are just as high as a bullet but for the majority of the human target, chances of a killing hit are lessened. Internal organs aren't blown to shreds. If shot clean through in the arm or leg by an arrow, you stand a good chance of walking for help as most of the muscle will be unaffected and if the arrow is left in place, little loss of blood. There's not much bruising compared to bullet wounds
It takes a true imbecile to kill or injure somebody, or themselves accidentally by bow and arrow. I know it happens. But 99% of the time, both parties end up laughing about it afterwards
Suicide by bow and arrow sounds almost comical.......... I'm not aware of a single case.

Yes, bows and arrows are lethal and have been designed to be lethal from the outset.. But are they less lethal a gun? I should say so.

Anyone skilled with a sharp knife and a little knowledge or trial and error can make a bow and arrow (not talking fancy composite bows. in that case you need very strong glue and any material you can get your hands on). I shaped my first longbow at age 6 with an old bowyer mentor. Still got it. Give me a yew tree and a sharp knife and I'll carve you a weapon that used en masse, IS as lethal as a gun, but also genuinely un-regulatable.
It takes a bit more effort, money and machinery to make a gun, with the right metals and knowledge of what temperatures to temper it. Even a crossbow needs a higher level of manufacture than most can safely manage in their sheds. Therefore, the majority of the armed citizenry rely on factories to make their weapons and simply hand over the money for them after waiting a couple of weeks only to see if you've got any prior convictions. I find that quite, quite scary.
I think a civilized society needs a bit more than that to control just who does get their hands on a weapon that requires no skill, no effort, and no thought to wield. Training and vigilance are all fair and well when the world runs like clockwork. However guns are one of the few items that can so easily be used incorrectly and devastatingly.

I'm English, but believe me, my views are in no way affected by government opinion. I can arrive at certain logical conclusions without a nanny state.

I do feel for the Americans and South Africans and other nations where you chance upon crossing a bad guy with a gun on a much more regular basis. You have a more difficult decision to reach upon the necessity of a gun. And I can understand the decision you make for personal safety. But for we who do have total gun bans enforced and reduced gun crime there of, it really does work for the sheer majority. I strut condifently through streets and alleys assured that I may never see a bad guy with a gun waiting for me.
I don't see any nations that has a gun ban where the masses are crying out for softer controls.

Out of interest, those that carry weapons, what constitutes a bad guy that would force you to take action?

Dangerous, charging wild animal?
Thief?
Murderer?
Mugger?
Crazed maniac?
Assassin?
Organised criminal?
King of England?

For the top seven I'd say let the law or authorities deal with it and if you can, stay well out of it. But only if you have a just and responsive legal system.
Organised Crime....... they're likely to be quite organised. Tread carefully.
King of England........ We don't have one at the moment. But for when Charles ascends the throne I feel that a re-conquest of the Americas is an unlikely priority.

To be on guard, mentally alert, scanning for potential threats every day and carrying lethal protection for the slim chance I might get attacked in some way, is a concern I can do without. If I felt that way where I live I would consider myself paranoid.

Regarding my comments about archery and the lethality of bows. I don't advocate them being kept at home. Far from it, they can just as easily fall into the wrong hands as a firearm can.
 
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