Removal of the Shuttle Fleet: David413 explains

[Hurricane]

Urwumpe, calm down! Firstly, it's his choice to pull out all of his addons. It's his personality and if he got hurt by people repainting his work, so be it.
Now, I don't know why you're offended by him stepping away and giving SSU more space. I mean, stupid people (without the intention to hurt anyone), if that's what you mean, fine. I'm sure you can deal with stupid people.

 

[Urwumpe]

Urwumpe, calm down! Firstly, it's his choice to pull out all of his addons. It's his personality and if he got hurt by people repainting his work, so be it.

I am calm. You don't want to see me ballistic.

Now, I don't know why you're offended by him stepping away and giving SSU more space.

It is the use of SSU in that context as "desired successor of SF". we have never tried to be rivals or successor for SF and I don't want to change this. But I am just one in a team, maybe others think different there.

Along of a long chain of buck passing in his post, David413 also passed the buck for future Space Shuttle missions in Orbiter to us. Without asking us or really caring about our view of our project.

I mean, stupid people (without the intention to hurt anyone), if that's what you mean, fine. I'm sure you can deal with stupid people.

The question is: Do I want this? I don't.

I don't want to answer questions in SSU that are caused by not reading the manuals. I also don't want to make SSU simpler by sacrificing some realism, so the clients of Shuttle Fleet can also feel at home in SSU. SSU is not Shuttle Fleet 5.0.

Shuttle Fleet was always the compromise solution. It was complex enough to fly realistic missions, but still relied on a few MFDs and keyboard commands for its operation.

I already felt badly annoyed that people wondered why they can't launch without starting the APUs. In Shuttle Fleet, this was never needed, in SSU, it is mandatory. In Shuttle Fleet, it was assumed that the pilot did just that at the right time. In SSU, you have to do it yourself and watch the displays to be sure everything worked fine.

SSU is a pretty egoistic project. I admit. We do it for us. We don't give a damn about being nice to beginners, or have a less steep learning curve. We do a Space Shuttle simulation like we wanted it, and of which we knew that Shuttle Fleet will never be, because David413 never wanted it that way. We also don't create a switch-throwing simulation like Space Shuttle Mission 20xx, we simulate a spacecraft, to the point that we can even enjoy what-if scenarios. I love reading the files that Graham2001 digs out of NASAs servers about never built projects for the Space Shuttle. SSU should be the NASA HSF program without budget constraints.

So, should I feel really happy, if David413 retreats for us, without us even asking if we would like to take his territory? He pretty much created the rather embarrassing situation that we either declare strongly that we are not responsible for his fans and add-on users, or have to be implicitly responsible, since there is "only us left".

Really: I would rather see somebody creating a second Shuttle Fleet than making the SSU project overexert itself with being a Shuttle for everyone. We can't please everybody.

PS: Yes, SSU does not forbid making stupid repaints. Maybe we should include the effects of the paint in the damage model, so your reentry temperatures have to be 400°C lower and you are constantly overheating in space.

 

[N_Molson]

:idea: About the rating thing on OrbitHangar it's true that it is a little unfair in the state it is. I think that addons should be rated by category. I mean, you can't compare complex projects like Thorton's ISSR or SSU (amongst others) to textures repaints. That's not on the same scale. There are excellent texture repaints, but if you sum up the hours of work required, it doesn't match.

So the main thing to change would be the "Top rated addon" thing that could become "Top rated addons by category [scroll]". And don't allow a global comparison. A Cessna-182 and a Space Shuttle are both capable of flying, but would you rate their performances on the same criterias ? Obviously not, because they serve completely different purpose, and are both excellent in their category. :2cents:

Urwumpe, calm down!

He is only a little grumpy those days

 

[Urwumpe]

He is only a little grumpy those days

Hey, watch out or I will get ironic! :lol:

I thought the rating system at OH is just personal opinion. And you know what this means. If you give a damn about it, you have lost as add-on developer. It is no rating of the quality of the add-on, that could make somebody decide if it is worth his time. Then you would already need to split between DLL-based add-ons, generic module add-ons, ..., and finally repaints.

 

[N_Molson]

I thought the rating system at OH is just personal opinion. And you know what this means.

That's the best way to see things of course, and the way I see them. But it indeed requires the ability to take some distance with things.

 

[Graham2001]

I love reading the files that Graham2001 digs out of NASAs servers about never built projects for the Space Shuttle. SSU should be the NASA HSF program without budget constraints.

I am feeling rather sad about this myself, Dave413's Shuttle Fleet was part of why I do all that digging on NASAs servers. It has been part of Orbiter since I first became interested in it.

I'm going to miss it greatly.

 

[Urwumpe]

Well, what else can you think of a system, that gives some idiot and his sockpuppets or "friends" (as if such people have friends) the same power in rating an add-on as many people of the community who really care?

One person without any life could register 20 accounts, write 20 destructive reviews for an add-on, give his 20 reviews 19 positive clicks as helpful remark and then leave the mess behind him.

There is no quality behind the reviews, like a "top of the cream" rating or the rating being calculated as a weighted sum, with the number and diversity (who only gives 5 star or one star ratings is bad anyway) being included in the final score.

Finally, we have exactly this situation:

 

[jedidia]

There is no quality behind the reviews

Yeah, we need the Delta-V magazine back...

 

[Artlav]

I mean, you can't compare complex projects like Thorton's ISSR or SSU (amongst others) to textures repaints. That's not on the same scale.

Somehow, that gives me a deja vu feeling.
Someone have already provided, in a big page format no less, a description of an add-on rating system like that.
Nothing changed.

 

[Ripley]

Sorry to sound unpopular, but I really fail to see any usefulness of all this OH rating-system. I just don't see the point (but maybe it's my fault).

I mean, I upload a fantastic add-on and I total one million downloads?
That's more than enough for my "developer ego" to be satisfied.

 

[Cras]

Well, I won't miss him. He handled this all wrong, and feels he needs to give on last parting shot before he goes, and he does it from someplace else.

And I can't say that I agree with his interpretation of copyright either.

 

[Yoda]

I fully understand David's reasoning for leaving the community and pulling his add-ons; over the years there has definativeley been a decline in "class" on the forum among newbies; not reading manuals, asking repetative questions, not crediting original authors and calling minor scenery tweaks " new add-ons" and expecting credit for it.

The Forum staff is also very quick to impose "infractions" for minor issue's, eventhough other Forum members that are a constant source of conflict seem to go unpunished.

Very sad to see the fleet retire; that's all I've flown over the years and it saddens me that there will be no further updates.

David, if you read this, thank you so much for everything you've done over the years; I understand it was a huge sacrifice and Orbiter wouldn't be what it is today without your contributions.

 

[orb]

The Forum staff is also very quick to impose "infractions" for minor issue's, eventhough other Forum members that are a constant source of conflict seem to go unpunished.

Do you have any insight into warnings and infractions to judge that?

Members can only see their own warnings and infractions, so I'm sorry if it appears to them that they are the only "victim" of the staff, and the other source of conflict goes unpunished.

Please don't comment matters you don't have any knowledge about.


And just a reminder:

6. Editorial & staff inquiry policies.

Threads may be closed and posts may be removed at any time for review by the staff. If, after review, the posts are found by us to be acceptable, then we will restore them. If your post is deemed inappropriate, then it will be edited or deleted, and you will be notified as such. Threads may be re-opened after the staff have resolved the issue. The administrators & moderators ultimately have the final say on content they decide should be cut or threads which should be closed.

Any questions or concerns about staff actions such as why a thread was closed, posts removed, or infractions and bans given, should be raised in private with a moderator or administrator. If a member wishes to challenge a moderator's action, this challenge must be raised in private with an administrator, not in the public forums! We are more than happy to listen to objections or suggestions raised in private, as long as they're presented in a civilized and reasonable manner. Out of respect for our members' privacy, we do not share information about a warning, infraction or ban with anyone besides the member who incurred it.

 

[Urwumpe]

Maybe it would help some people to feel less annoyed, if there would be some anonymous newsletter about the past moderator team actions... like you can read in your newspaper about the cases at the local court, but are left to find out yourself, who was actually the accused.

"Tuesday: One week ban for user U. for being a pain in the again."

 

[Mattyv]

I not very happy that David pulled the fleet. But if what he is saying is true and some people were treating him like , I can't say that I wouldn't do something similar under the same circumstances.

As usual a couple of idiots ruin a great thing for those who truly enjoyed it.

I'm really going to miss the fleet.

 

[Mojave]

It just goes to show you, when somebody screws up, everyone is affected. I thank the people who flamed Dave for doing what they did. :dry:

 

[RisingFury]

true but the problem is that most addons upload at OH depend on SF. Like I said, at least he should give it away

Most addons on OH do not depend on SF, OH is much more diverse than that.
As for "giving it away", it's his choice. He has his reasons for his decisions.

Why not post it here? Why go out of your way, and then ask to have someone post it on O-F? It's a very silly ploy for attention if you ask me.

Threads like these usually don't go far on O-F, so I understand why he chose to post it elsewhere. As for attention... you chose to open the thread and read it, you chose to comment on it, so it's unfair to accuse him of staging a "very silly ploy for attention".

well whoever did this to Him will pay, without mercy.

Yes, a mindless witch hunt. That's just what we need. Much better than actually settling the dispute in a civilized manner. [/sarcasm]

Somehow, that gives me a deja vu feeling.
Someone have already provided, in a big page format no less, a description of an add-on rating system like that.
Nothing changed.

*Ahem*
Shameless plug: The how's and why's of rating addons

But you're right, I knew when I released the guide that nothing would change, but it was worth my time anyway.

Well, I won't miss him. He handled this all wrong, and feels he needs to give on last parting shot before he goes, and he does it from someplace else.

And I can't say that I agree with his interpretation of copyright either.

You won't miss him because you never used his addons, or because of the argument around the way he left?

I never used his addons because I'm not much into simulating the shuttle, but I will miss him. I know what it's like to sink hundreds (or thousands) of hours of work into a project, just because you feel like giving something to the community.

I can also understand his attitude towards the newbies that don't read the manual and ask the same questions all over again. It's not just him, it's all of us. Look through the forum for threads like "OMG, the sky is black!!! HELP!!!" and "I can't reach orbit!!! Help!!!". The typical reaction of at least one poster in the thread (including myself) is the arrogant "USE THE SEARCH" reply.


David, whatever you decide to do, thank you for your work!

 

[Felipi1205]

In some PM's he said that I was "Hijacking" the Shuttle Fleet thread because I said about a bug that I had found and he couldn't understand. The famous addons are going to be updated... The perfect example is the XR2!

 

[Keatah]

what was the latest version of shuttle fleet?

 

[VladimirApollo]

Wow, orbiterforum. I'm so disappointed in you. You were unfair, and you made one of the best add-on makers to disappear. I'm left with an orbiter installation which includes the SF 4.8 and the patch, and now if it ever disappears I'm done for. You do suck. Send warnings to me all you want or even ban me, but do know that you are guilty here. ONLY YOU.