News (Inspiration Mars) Dennis Tito Wants to Send Human Mission to Mars in 2018

So much comments on something (Inspiration Mars and SLS) that BOTH are just pure fantasy?

Oh, and as digression...
They can't make it worse than NASA with the STS, but they are still spaceflight snake oil traders.
Snake oil traders? Do you claim five F9 launches was faked and SpaceX pocketed NASA money for nothing or what?
 
Snake oil traders? Do you claim five F9 launches was faked and SpaceX pocketed NASA money for nothing or what?

No, I claim that they make a marketing campaign, as if they invented the rocket again, despite having constructed something so antique, that it even makes the R-7 look modern. It has a sound of "Daddy, I go potty!" Proud of every small success, celebrated by fans, but actually: Nothing really impressive.

What has SpaceX really achieved? Not: What have they promised? What have they really turned into hardware?
 
No, I claim that they make a marketing campaign, as if they invented the rocket again,
I don't get this kind of impression. Musk credits NASA and last 50 years of rocket technology for what he achieved.
Most succint quote: https://twitter.com/SpaceX/status/12608349564575745
His marketing depends on claims he is so damn cheap, not that he invented antigravity device or whatever you expected from him.
 
I don't get this kind of impression. Musk credits NASA and last 50 years of rocket technology for what he achieved.
Most succint quote: https://twitter.com/SpaceX/status/12608349564575745
His marketing depends on claims he is so damn cheap, not that he invented antigravity device or whatever you expected from him.

And that they will do that, and then do that, and... Its marketing.

Take for example "We are soo cheap" argument.

I know no price of them. I only know their claims during development (eg, $4100/kg for the Falcon 9 1.1 (55 million USD launch costs +/- economic factors) - the 1.1 is yet to launch) , but once the rocket flies, the prices are top secret. You can tell that the prices can't be a revolution, because nobody aside NASA really invests into SpaceX. The number of commercial payloads for SpaceX booked can be counted on one hand. Actually flown: 0, less than a dozen planned. How many of them actually will fly: Unknown.

EDIT: Yes, I sense a slight overrating of SpaceX achievements. Its not that they are without successes - but every tiny success is especially here in the forum celebrated like a new moon landing. And this goes into the discussions as well. Take the Dragon capsule, thats only really big success is not the flights or the safe return: It is that the team managed to pass the NASA certification for COTS flights - a paperwork orgy.
 
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And that they will do that, and then do that, and... Its marketing.

Take for example "We are soo cheap" argument.

I know no price of them. I only know their claims during development (eg, $4100/kg for the Falcon 9 1.1 (55 million USD launch costs +/- economic factors) - the 1.1 is yet to launch) , but once the rocket flies, the prices are top secret. You can tell that the prices can't be a revolution, because nobody aside NASA really invests into SpaceX. The number of commercial payloads for SpaceX booked can be counted on one hand. Actually flown: 0, less than a dozen planned. How many of them actually will fly: Unknown.

And this is one of the main reasons why I'm look with a skeptical view to SpaceX. There clam there are a private spaceflight company / space agency. But without the funds of NASA, there are nowhere. Too give a good example: The Falcon-1, it did only 5 launched, where 3 of them failed, two launches successes, and there is no Falcon-1 flight anymore, and the chance we seen ever a Falcon-1e is almost zero. And to not forget, is that there of all 5 launches of the Falcon-1, there don't even successful recovered any first stage of the Falcon-1. So there not made a good PR for there focus at that moment, and a lot of companies and space agencies hold there money.

To be short: The Falcon-1 was SpaceX first, and only rocket who was really made mostly from non-government funds. The Falcon-9 is active, almost all thanks to NASA with there funds to support SpaceX. There clam there are always the cheapest, but there is no independent calculation how much really a Falcon 9 / Falcon Heavy cost. Theoretical, a Soyuz-2 launch cost even lower (50 million dollars I seen somewhere) then a Falcon-9 launch. And I think it cost only 5 million dollars more (55 million dollars) to launch a Soyuz-2 rocket from Guiana for a GEO launch. So, will you spend you're money to a old, but very successful and a big rocket launch history, for only 55 million dollars, or will you pay a bit 'less' to a new rocket, with no history in missions qua normal satellite launches?

Well, to be short (Again) : SpaceX today this days are not really a private spaceflight company anymore, there are even very dependent on the funds of NASA. Even there clam there are the first private spaceflight company, there was already someone before them: Orbital Sciences!

And then SpaceX will launch a Falcon-Heavy this year, with 28 engines, with a new type of the Merlin rocket engine. 28 engines are a lot, maybe too much. Well, I wish them good luck, but I stay skeptical.
 
And a Soyuz-2.1v would be magic compared to the technology used in the Falcon 9. NK-33 engines...which are cheap and powerful and flight proven. The Antares launcher also uses it.
 
EDIT: Yes, I sense a slight overrating of SpaceX achievements. Its not that they are without successes - but every tiny success is especially here in the forum celebrated like a new moon landing. And this goes into the discussions as well. Take the Dragon capsule, thats only really big success is not the flights or the safe return: It is that the team managed to pass the NASA certification for COTS flights - a paperwork orgy.

Well you have to bear in mind that we've been somewhat starved for any really exciting stuff since the Shuttle program ended. Im not so naive as to believe every estimate that SpaceX throws out there, but I do think they have a reasonably good chance of success in accomplishing at least part of their space-cost goals. Its really just a shift away from the NASA "highest-tech, highest-complexity" attitude, towards doing things more like the Russians; effective, cheap, & lots of capability.
 
Its really just a shift away from the NASA "highest-tech, highest-complexity" attitude, towards doing things more like the Russians; effective, cheap, & lots of capability.

Thats wrong - NASA was NEVER really highest-tech, highest complexity. Even the SSME is not the ultimative perfect solution. It is very complex, but it has to achieve the then-impossible - after the design specs changed a lot. But as I will explain below, it is not the spearhead of human rocket engine design and not even the best what the USA had been doing in the 70s.

The Shuttle itself had been in many places a very conservative design, despite being the first space plane. It had enough experimental stuff in it by design.

Same that the Russians always use low-tech: Their engines are far beyond even the SSME. They use still metallurgy, that is nearly magical for us westerners (Does not corrode or burn in the presence of hot oxygen gas), operate at pressures, that are unreached by contemporary western engines, need no large pressure oscillation damper systems in their piping designs and are still cheaper than everything western (Because they have the skills to achieve with few carefully designed parts, what we can only do with many complex work-arounds). Compared to a russian engine, even the Merlin engines of SpaceX are primitive and expensive at the same time. They are maybe cheap for an US engine. But thats not the reference.

And had been using very advanced technology in their rockets and spacecraft. That they used the same technology then for decades by economic constraints is not intentional. And if you look at the last Soyuz launch, with just 6 hours to docking, you can see, what innovation really means.

That is what I mean with "The Falcon 9 even lets the R-7 look like high-tech". It is based on very old technology, that has low technological risk. It is by economics a conservative choice, but no innovation. It does nothing new, it simply does what we have always done (And thus, lets us be, what we have always been. Groundhogs). In a time, where spaceflight is stuck in doing, what we have always done, not uncommon. But nothing to celebrate.

Elon Musk seems to be trying to invoke emotions with his company, that NASA has left behind with the Shuttle - but when it is about paying bills, they are icecold and heartless, dominated by accountants, not engineers. Opposite of NASA, which is dominated by engineers, who have to please accountants, resulting in great solutions getting funded and thrown away.
 
Thats wrong - NASA was NEVER really highest-tech, highest complexity. Even the SSME is not the ultimative perfect solution. It is very complex, but it has to achieve the then-impossible - after the design specs changed a lot. But as I will explain below, it is not the spearhead of human rocket engine design and not even the best what the USA had been doing in the 70s.

The Shuttle itself had been in many places a very conservative design, despite being the first space plane. It had enough experimental stuff in it by design.

Same that the Russians always use low-tech: Their engines are far beyond even the SSME. They use still metallurgy, that is nearly magical for us westerners (Does not corrode or burn in the presence of hot oxygen gas), operate at pressures, that are unreached by contemporary western engines, need no large pressure oscillation damper systems in their piping designs and are still cheaper than everything western (Because they have the skills to achieve with few carefully designed parts, what we can only do with many complex work-arounds). Compared to a russian engine, even the Merlin engines of SpaceX are primitive and expensive at the same time. They are maybe cheap for an US engine. But thats not the reference.

And had been using very advanced technology in their rockets and spacecraft. That they used the same technology then for decades by economic constraints is not intentional. And if you look at the last Soyuz launch, with just 6 hours to docking, you can see, what innovation really means.

That is what I mean with "The Falcon 9 even lets the R-7 look like high-tech". It is based on very old technology, that has low technological risk. It is by economics a conservative choice, but no innovation. It does nothing new, it simply does what we have always done (And thus, lets us be, what we have always been. Groundhogs). In a time, where spaceflight is stuck in doing, what we have always done, not uncommon. But nothing to celebrate.

Elon Musk seems to be trying to invoke emotions with his company, that NASA has left behind with the Shuttle - but when it is about paying bills, they are icecold and heartless, dominated by accountants, not engineers. Opposite of NASA, which is dominated by engineers, who have to please accountants, resulting in great solutions getting funded and thrown away.

I see what you mean, but my point is that the Russians designed launch systems that were much simpler as a whole, than what NASA tends to produce. The Soyuz was (and is) a great launch vehicle because it only needs simple facilities (horizontal assembly), a reasonable propellant combination in LOX-RP1 (no boil-off, fewer heating issues, easier to get and store, doesnt have massive environmental implications if there is a launch failure), it has an abort mode that actually could be used in an emergency, & it can be flown without a crew(more launches, more flight data, less risk)

The Soyuz is also better because its manufactured by one supplier, just like SpaceX, instead of having every system thrown to a US aerospace company as a "economic stimulus carrot", preventing engineers from designing the launch vehicle to work best when its assembled, as opposed to individual system by system.

I hear your point about less advanced technology taking over, but at the end of the day, if the launch is cheaper, who cares? We could also be using Fluorine, LH2, & Lithium for propellants if we wanted top efficiency, but noone does that because of the practical issues involved. So, if the Falcon 9 is the cheaper of two launch vehicles, why not just go with the cheaper alternative? Creating the engines of the future is great, but thats what test stands are for. :shrug:
 
I see what you mean, but my point is that the Russians designed launch systems that were much simpler as a whole, than what NASA tends to produce. The Soyuz was (and is) a great launch vehicle because it only needs simple facilities (horizontal assembly), a reasonable propellant combination in LOX-RP1 (no boil-off, fewer heating issues, easier to get and store, doesnt have massive environmental implications if there is a launch failure), it has an abort mode that actually could be used in an emergency, & it can be flown without a crew(more launches, more flight data, less risk)

Simpler is not a sign or inferior technology. Sophistication is not a sign of superior technology. The Russians can design very simple engines, because they have a much better understanding. Just like a great rock musician can compose great rock songs stripped down right to the note, leaving every piece of bloat away.

The Soyuz is also better because its manufactured by one supplier,

Wrong. It has multiple subcontractors. And the locations of the subcontractors is also based on political considerations - back then.

Creating the engines of the future is great, but thats what test stands are for. :shrug:

I am talking about engines of today. And: If nobody creates new engines, tries new solutions, we will get stuck. We stagnate away.
 
If you're referring to Bolden - he's no stooge.

My issue with him is he is no NASA advocate. He works for the President, and he knows it. He does what the President tells him, and he becomes just another member of the President's agenda.

And this is not just for Bolden, this is how NASA administrators have been for a while now. NASA would be in a much better position if the President or VP, or whoever would find a capable administrator who understands the industry and puts them in charge of NASA and lets them go. Dont just go around parroting lines given to them from the White House, but actually be an advocate. Get down to the Capitol and argue why such and such budget are bad for the agency, why such and such funding is required. If NASA had a strong administrator it would make it much more difficult for Congress to boss the agency around.
 
... Get down to the Capitol and argue why such and such budget are bad for the agency, why such and such funding is required. If NASA had a strong administrator it would make it much more difficult for Congress to boss the agency around.

He who holds the purse strings...
gets to pull the strings...


Bob Clark
 
My issue with him is he is no NASA advocate. He works for the President, and he knows it. He does what the President tells him, and he becomes just another member of the President's agenda.

And this is not just for Bolden, this is how NASA administrators have been for a while now. NASA would be in a much better position if the President or VP, or whoever would find a capable administrator who understands the industry and puts them in charge of NASA and lets them go. Dont just go around parroting lines given to them from the White House, but actually be an advocate. Get down to the Capitol and argue why such and such budget are bad for the agency, why such and such funding is required. If NASA had a strong administrator it would make it much more difficult for Congress to boss the agency around.

Every administrator works directly for the president. Their vision and speeches of the "future of exploration" reflects the presidents. This is nothing new. However Bolden has done very well at playing politics, he goes into Congressional hearings as a Marine first, and a politician second (though it may help to have his payload specialist on STS-61C usually as the chairman of those hearings). He's done very well given the situation NASA is in at keeping NASA intact in the face of an administration and congress who is absolutely desperate to cut every single last important program to pay for their own special interests. Take for example Congressmen Wolf, who's prosecuting NASA for having "Chinese spies," he completely lost his argument against NASA's commercial crew program and there are some who believe this is his answer to that. This administration and congress is the most "in the present" administration I have ever heard of.

I applaud Bolden, I just wish he'd been administrator under a more stable and thoughtful administration.

But I agree with the above, we are in the wrong thread for this.
 
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a reasonable propellant combination in LOX-RP1 (no boil-off...

LOX-RP1 operates at cryogenic temperatures, so there is a significant boil-off. Things are of course worse with LH2, but still you have the issue. The Fregat upper stage uses hypergolics, which don't have boil-off issues (and allow "cold restarts").

why not just go with the cheaper alternative? Creating the engines of the future is great, but thats what test stands are for. :shrug:

Well, why not adopt the regeneratively cooled staged combustion cycle developped by the soviets in the 1960's ? The NK-33 features that and the result is that you gain 25 good seconds of ISP in vacuum. That's not exactly new tech, it is now 50 years old.
 
You can't fly people to Mars by the private industry alone. Hear! Hear!
 
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