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When the comet starts ejecting material, could there be enough force to push the lander off of the comet?

Theoretically not, 67P isn't the most active comet. But who really knows? Maybe the location around Philae will become the most active region by the additional heat of the probe.

Halley ejected 3 tons of materials every second the last time at its peak, in August 2014 67P ejected just 1 liter of water vapor every second.
 
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The Rosetta mission is already much more curious than anybody could have expected - how wrong have we really been about comets?

That's the thing I don't understand.

I didn't start following the mission until recently, so I don't know much about the design of the lander, but the entire thing seems to be engineered around assumptions.

I understand we don't know much about comets, but it appears to me as if engineers started assuming stuff and left very little margins for error.

Don't think this landing was a failure, though. Even if we didn't get the chance to do the science because the engineering failed us, valuable things have / will be learned for the next attempt.


boogabooga said:
Is there anything holding the lander to the comet?

Gravity. The lander isn't going anywhere on its own.


boogabooga said:
When the comet starts ejecting material, could there be enough force to push the lander off of the comet?

We don't know, but it's a possibility.

It's not the only danger to the lander, though.

What little power it gets goes towards heating. That means very little heat and a lot of cold. I don't know if the materials the lander is made of can survive the months of expansion and contraction cycles without cracking. As far as we know, that's how the Phoenix lander on Mars died during the Martian winter.

I'm also not sure if the batteries can survive the cold and still be recharged.

The comet itself can also pose a danger. I doubt the material flowing off will be powerful enough to eject the lander, but as the comet rotates, it's surface is exposed to light and darkness, making it expand and contract. That can lead to ice cracking.


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Philae's mass is about 100 kg, but beyond this, it makes it difficult to estimate the force you'd need to lift the lander. The mass of the comet is known to within about 10% to be 10^13 kg, but estimates of surface gravity are not trivial to do. This thing isn't spherical. It's likely that due to its shape, the surface gravity fluctuates quite dramatically, as well as its direction. That said, we can assume something like 3.5 * 10^-4 m/s^2 or 0.35 mm/s^2 acceleration.
For this, you'd need a force of only 0.04 N to lift the lander. This sounds awfully little - it is. An apple weighs 1 N on Earth. A sheet of paper weighs 0.01 N.

I hope I didn't make an order of magnitude mistake in my calculations.

Ion engines produce thrust on the order of 0.01 N. True, they expel propellant at very high speeds that the comet can't, but ion engines also use very little mass flow. I really hope the lander doesn't get blown off the surface when the comet sneezes...

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I don't know exactly at what speed gas escapes from the surface of the comet, but we can set a lowest boundary: 1 m/s

That's the escape velocity for the comet. We know the material gets off the comet, so it has to get at least that fast. At that speed, you'd need about 50 grams of material hitting the lander to counter gravity and get it off the surface.


The only thing that I can think of that is powerful enough to do that is a jet. It's thought that jets have enough thrust that they can actually get the comet to change its rotation rate... Philae wouldn't stand a chance against it.
 
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The only thing that I can think of that is powerful enough to do that is a jet. It's thought that jets have enough thrust that they can actually get the comet to change its rotation rate... Philae wouldn't stand a chance against it.

Yes, the 3 tons/second jets of Halley had exactly this effect, as Giotto observations showed together with radar measurements.
 
I don't know exactly at what speed gas escapes from the surface of the comet, but we can set a lowest boundary: 1 m/s

That's the escape velocity for the comet. We know the material gets off the comet, so it has to get at least that fast. At that speed, you'd need about 50 grams of material hitting the lander to counter gravity and get it off the surface.


The only thing that I can think of that is powerful enough to do that is a jet. It's thought that jets have enough thrust that they can actually get the comet to change its rotation rate... Philae wouldn't stand a chance against it.
The estimate of gas traveling away at 1 m/s is very conservative. Dust from the nucleus is anticipated to travel at 100-200 m/s relative to the orbiter which itself orbits very slowly. Rosetta isn't planned to orbit as close as 10 km to the surface again due to the possibility of being pushed away by expelled particles as the comet becomes more active.

Not sure how that translates to Philae being disturbed.

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From what I read, Philae weighs as much as a few sheets of paper on Earth so your calculations look correct.
 
The estimate of gas traveling away at 1 m/s is very conservative. Dust from the nucleus is anticipated to travel at 100-200 m/s relative to the orbiter which itself orbits very slowly. Rosetta isn't planned to orbit as close as 10 km to the surface again due to the possibility of being pushed away by expelled particles as the comet becomes more active.

Bet poor lil Philae is wishing those harpoons had worked right about now... at 100 m/s, only 0.5 grams per second hitting Philae would be enough to blow it off the surface.
 
Bet poor lil Philae is wishing those harpoons had worked right about now... at 100 m/s, only 0.5 grams per second hitting Philae would be enough to blow it off the surface.

Yes. If the comet has so much dry ice to form such jets.
 
A related topic:
Maplesoft is a maths program too expensive(and heavy) for me. so it goes on and off the pc in trial mode. A Dr. Ahmed Baroudy has made an application for it featuring Rosetta.

Links for a pdf of the application, the Maplesoft application, and a free Maplesoft viewer here:
http://www.maplesoft.com/applications/view.aspx?SID=153706

I would read the pdf first to decide if you want to download the viewer, its quite large. No flashy graphics in it either, just the maths and comments!

The Comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko, Rosetta & Philae

Abstract

The Rosetta space probe launched 10 years ago by the European Space Agency (ESA) arrived recently (November 12, 2014) at the site of the comet known as 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenco after a trip of 4 billions miles from Earth. After circling the comet, Rosetta released its precious load : the lander Philae packed with 21 different scientific instruments for the study of the comet with the main purpose : the origin of our solar system and possibly the origin of life on our planet.

Our plan is rather a modest one since all we want is to get , by calculations, specific data concerning the comet and its lander.
We shall take a simplified model and consider the comet as a perfect solid sphere to which we can apply Newton's laws.

We want to find:

I- the acceleration on the comet surface ,
II- its radius,
III- its density,
IV- the velocity of Philae just after the 1st bounce off the comet (it has bounced twice),
V- the time for Philae to reach altitude of 1000 m above the comet .

We shall compare our findings with the already known data to see how close our simplified mathematical model findings are to the duck-shaped comet already known results.
It turned out that our calculations for a sphere shaped comet are very close to the already known data.

Conclusion

Even with a shape that defies the application of any mechanical laws we can always get very close to reality by adopting a simplified mathematical model in any preliminary study of a complicated problem.

N.
 
BBC article:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-30524429

An image has been released that shows the hairy moment that the Philae comet lander bounced back into space.

The robot touched down on 4km-wide 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko in November, but not before rebounding twice.

The new picture is a big blur, which is not surprising given that the lander was far from static at the time.

N.
 
_79800427_model.jpg


...and for anyone who missed it, this image seems to clarify the orientation of the probe relative to the surface.
 
_79800427_model.jpg


...and for anyone who missed it, this image seems to clarify the orientation of the probe relative to the surface.

A new meaning to between a rock and a hard place.

It's interesting that they used blender to get hat model.
 
Card_EN_small.jpeg


Pretty humorous, regarding the landing of Philae. :)
 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-32380793

Space-Duck 'breaks wind'...
Europe's Rosetta probe has caught its comet quarry in the act of producing a huge jet of gas and dust.

The 4km-wide icy dirt-ball known as 67P is now throwing off copious amounts of material as it warms up on its journey in towards the Sun.

Rosetta is keeping a safe distance, but continuing to image the evolving body.

And in a series of new pictures from its Osiris science camera system, the probe watched the jet burst from the duck-shaped comet's "backside".

This is the region dubbed Imhotep, after the Ancient Egyptian god of wisdom and medicine.
 
More interesting is the discovery of a jet on a shaded part of 67P there... its something that scientists did not yet expect.
 
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