A Return to the Moon by the Apollo 11 50th Anniversary.

One point that should also never be overlooked in handling big projects: Experience. If you use a rocket hundreds of times, you gain a lot of experience operating this rocket. If you use the same IMU hundreds of times, you learn every tiny glitch of it and can make it more precise alone by software updates.

Experience is a very important factor in a program, maybe even more important than money or time. Only if you have experience, you can make exact time and cost estimates. Only if you have experience, you can notice the tiny warning signs, where your project is about to fall behind. Experience helps you seeing where you can really improve. Experience helps you understand the language of the complex system.

A HLV that only launches once can't build up any experience at all. Even one dozen flights is nothing at all. The Ariane 4 started to offer the first performance options based on experience with the launcher after about 40 flights, allowing satellite owners to launch heavier satellites with an calculated higher risk of launch failure.
 
Not necessarily. Even the components in HLV-orientated missions tend to be of a mass that EELV-sized or EELV-derived vehicles could handle, especially if propellant can be distributed.

On what mission are you basing this statement? No actual HLV-oriented missions have been flown since Apollo!

Further, replacing one HLV launch with 5 EELV launches creates a major reliability problem. Current Atlas V reliability score is 37/38, i.e. 97.3%. Over 5 launches, that means success probability of only 87.5% -- or, failure probability of 12.5% if you prefer. Over 10 launches, the probability of at least one failure is 23%. How do you design a mission to account for that?

Then, each on-orbit docking and propellant transfer introduces more potential points of failure -- what if, for example, one vehicle crashes into another? You reliability goes down sharply with the number of operations involved.

Further, there is another problem. If a HLV launch fails, the payload will crash into the ocean, and the mission is simply written off. But if launch #5 of a 5-launch campaign fails, then what? You're left with 80 tons of junk in Low Earth Orbit. Have a backup launcher ready? Extra costs. Deorbit controllably? You must design for such facility from the beginning.

Bottom line is, these schemes become more complicated when you try to execute them.

The ideal isn't to assemble such a stage from several parts, but launch it partly fuelled and top it off with propellant launched on other vehicles (the S-IVB for instance was only about 12 tons dry, easily within the capabilities of modern launchers).

Do you know that launch vehicles have volume constraints in addition to size constraints?

While the technical capabilities of in-space propellant transfer or long-term storage of cryogens on orbit may be challenging, they're a pretty important skill to have (and would likely be relevant in some form for an HLV-orientated mission in any case), and could have very useful spinoffs for commercial spaceflight, unmanned exploration, and military programs.

Except nobody has such skill at the moment. The question is if developing this skill will cost less than going the HLV route. Besides, can you name an obvious commercial or military application of this technology?

Regarding unmanned exploration, launch costs are not the primary cost driver there. A Discovery class mission has a budget of $1B, out of which the LV costs $0.2B -- i.e. 20%. Most of the budget is the development of unique mission hardware and keeping the scientific staff on payroll for several years.

---------- Post added at 07:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:19 PM ----------

A HLV that only launches once can't build up any experience at all. Even one dozen flights is nothing at all. The Ariane 4 started to offer the first performance options based on experience with the launcher after about 40 flights, allowing satellite owners to launch heavier satellites with an calculated higher risk of launch failure.

I think that Falcon Heavy could hit the sweet spot here.

Here's why: the launcher is supposed to be cheap, so it can be used for satellite payloads instead of an EELV.

At the same time, the payload is 50 tons to LEO. Use one launch for the payload, other one for the kick stage, dock in orbit (once!) -- voila, 50 tons to Mars. Just like Ares V, but without the price tag...
 
I think that Falcon Heavy could hit the sweet spot here.

Here's why: the launcher is supposed to be cheap, so it can be used for satellite payloads instead of an EELV.

At the same time, the payload is 50 tons to LEO. Use one launch for the payload, other one for the kick stage, dock in orbit (once!) -- voila, 50 tons to Mars. Just like Ares V, but without the price tag...


Well, its be artificial made "cheap" and also, you don't surely known how much the launch price of the FH really is. It don't even did its first launch. And is it not something fearful to have 27 engines on the boosters and the first stage? And don't forget also that the Falcon 9 did a success rate now of 4/5. The price tag become more then you think. Don't forget the crew, the cargo, the stuff, the duration, the return ect.

If spaceflight was so simple, then we already send a crew to Mars in the 70's. But no, spaceflight is not simple!
 
At the same time, the payload is 50 tons to LEO. Use one launch for the payload, other one for the kick stage, dock in orbit (once!) -- voila, 50 tons to Mars. Just like Ares V, but without the price tag...

Yes. And 50 tons to LEO is only 20 tons to GEO. Or two Ariane 5 ECA. But the Falcon Heavy does not yet have any hints about being capable of delivering multiple satellites in the same way as the Ariane 5 can. This is not trivial, it is a big difference if you just deploy many satellites in the same manner, or if you have to deploy every satellite as the customer requests.

Also, you should remember that the price tag of the Falcon Heavy is not what the Falcon Heavy really costs. It is the price of a rocket that does not yet fly. To quote "From the Earth to the Moon":

Do you remember when it was supposed to cost 500 million?
No, I can't even remember when it did cost a billion.
 
On what mission are you basing this statement? No actual HLV-oriented missions have been flown since Apollo!

I'm sorry; I should have clarified that I was including non-flown studies.

Primarily Constellation, although Apollo is still somewhat applicable to the discussion.

Then, each on-orbit docking and propellant transfer introduces more potential points of failure -- what if, for example, one vehicle crashes into another? You reliability goes down sharply with the number of operations involved.

It would be interesting to collate the data on the failure rates of orbital rendezvous and docking operations. I suspect (without any data to back up my assumption) that such operations are a good deal more reliable than launch vehicles. The reliability of docking procedures may go down if automated procedures are used, but gaining a great deal of experience with docking operations would be quite advantageous, considering that rendezvous and docking could be critically important to crew safety elsewhere in exploration programs.

Further, there is another problem. If a HLV launch fails, the payload will crash into the ocean, and the mission is simply written off. But if launch #5 of a 5-launch campaign fails, then what? You're left with 80 tons of junk in Low Earth Orbit. Have a backup launcher ready? Extra costs. Deorbit controllably? You must design for such facility from the beginning.

I can't see how having the remaining hardware intact and in orbit is a negative attribute. Obviously that hardware has a limited lifetime, most likely defined by the propellant boiloff rate, but given a low enough boiloff rate, a fast enough turnaround time to launch a replacement component, and/or the ability to top off propellant on-orbit, the mission could be salvaged. It may be challenging to design for such mission recoverability, but it's less challenging than designing a payload to withstand a range safety detonation.

Having an extra launcher on hand to launch a backup component isn't that costly if said launcher is set to launch the next payload in line anyway. Deorbiting things from LEO is relatively easy, and such a spacecraft stack ought to have some form of propulsion onboard that would be capable of performing a deorbit burn if necessary.

Do you know that launch vehicles have volume constraints in addition to size constraints?

Yes. Launch vehicles already make use of hammerhead fairings to accommodate high-volume payloads. Wider fairings could potentially developed to carry even wider payloads. From the Atlas 5 User's Guide, page 263;

Payload fairings as large as 7.2m (283 in.) in diameter and up to 32.3m (106 ft) in
length have been considered.

Such a fairing could easily enclose an S-IVB. Further discussion of such a fairing is found on page 349, where it is stated that this fairing configuration is limited to flying on configurations with up to 4 boosters (though the Heavy variant is not discussed). Larger hammerheads are, at the very least, a considerable possibility.

In addition, the wider the vehicle's body, the wider, theoretically, a hammerhead fairing can be. The Delta IV already sports a 5 meter fairing without a hammerhead; applying a similar ratio to that of the current Atlas (about 1.4) gives a 7 meter size, and applying a similar ratio to that of the 7.2 meter fairing would give a fairing in excess of 9 meters in diameter. Note that this is merely a simple extrapolation; such a fairing size may or may not be possible, depending on various factors.

A medium or heavy lift launch vehicle may be wider still; the Saturn IB was 6.61 meters in diameter and required no hammerhead to carry an S-IVB stage. No vehicles with a similar diameter are currently operational or in development, however. The Atlas V phase 2 evolution would utilise a 5-meter core using Delta tooling, as well as a 7.2 meter fairing and variants with payload capacity from 9 to 75 metric tons;

2rzsao7.jpg


Except nobody has such skill at the moment. The question is if developing this skill will cost less than going the HLV route.

It probably would be. Whether the cost of a program utilising EELVs with propellant storage and transfer would be less than that of the HLV route is less certain.

Besides, can you name an obvious commercial or military application of this technology?

In-flight refuelling or limited in-flight repair of satellites would be pretty useful. Granted, satellites use hypergols rather than cryogens, but some of the developments for cryogenic propellants may be useful there as well, as would some of the technology developed for mitigating cryogen boiloff.

Beyond that, a space tug, or in-flight refuelling for upper stages might be beneficial.

Regarding unmanned exploration, launch costs are not the primary cost driver there. A Discovery class mission has a budget of $1B, out of which the LV costs $0.2B -- i.e. 20%. Most of the budget is the development of unique mission hardware and keeping the scientific staff on payroll for several years.

The cost reduction may not be revolutionary but it'd still be present. There's a benefit in different programs sharing costs.
 
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Ahh, I understand you point, but why man-rating cost billions of dollars (Or euros, we talking about ESA now) ?
And can you give some data how much a Soyuz 2.1b launch cost? I would thank you very much if you can get some data :)

I don't know the launch cost of simply the vehicle. I only know Russia recently upped the price for passengers, including American or European astronauts, to $73 million per seat.


Bob Clark

---------- Post added 06-06-13 at 06:09 PM ---------- Previous post was 06-05-13 at 10:43 PM ----------

The cost to NASA for lunar or other BEO missions can be cut drastically, perhaps by three orders of magnitude, by following a combination of four cost-cutting approaches.

1.)Commercial space approach. SpaceX and now Orbital Sciences have shown that as much as 90% off of the development cost can be cut by the cost-sharing of the commercial space approach.

2.)Go small. NASA’s SEV weighs about a third that of Orion. Orbital’s Cygnus weighs about a quarter. Imagine how small, and low cost, your lunar mission could be if you only had to transport a quarter of the mass to the Moon.

3.)Use existing components. The huge development costs for the Apollo program and of Constellation were because they had to use all newly developed components. Those costs would be reduced greatly if you only had to adapt already existing components. No Saturn V, Ares V, or SLS, and their huge development costs, required.

4.)Use international partners. The cut in development cost by engaging in cost-sharing is already included in the commercial space approach. However, the cost to NASA can be cut even further by sharing development costs with our international space partners such as the ESA and Japan.


The advantages of extending the commercial space approach to BEO flights are discussed here:

Budget Moon Flights: letter to NASA.
http://exoscientist.blogspot.com/2013/06/budget-moon-flights-letter-to-nasa.html

The National Research Council is soliciting input from the public about what direction NASA should take regarding human spaceflight:

NRC Committee on Human Spaceflight Needs Input.
Posted by Marc Boucher Posted June 4, 2013 8:30 AM
The National Research Council Committee on Human Spaceflight Needs is looking for input
from communities interested in human exploration. The deadline for submissions is July 9.
http://spaceref.com/exploration/nrc-committee-on-human-spaceflight-needs-input.html

Now's the time to let YOUR vision for space be heard!


Bob Clark
 
I’m fairly sure looking at the capabilities of the Delta IV Heavy with the upgraded RS-68a engine, about 28 metric tons to LEO, that it could launch the Orion on that 2014 test launch on an actual circumlunar flight, not just to 3,600 miles out as currently planned. A circumlunar flight would result in a much more capable test of the Orion.

The Orion test is planned to only carry a dummy service module, so that will be much lighter. The flight is planned though to carry the launch abort system (LAS) so that detracts from the weight that can be launched.

Without the LAS the DIVH could definitely send the Orion on a circumlunar flight. With the LAS, it makes it a little more difficult to estimate since it is jettisoned before reaching orbit.
This makes the use of the SLS for that unmanned circumlunar test flight in 2017 even more dubious, since the DIVH could do that, even if removing the LAS is required. That is another reason why I say NASA should be aiming for an actual unmanned lunar landing test with that 2017 SLS flight.

ULA has done studies on adapting the Centaur upper stage as a lunar lander stage so you would not need a huge, and hugely expensive, Altair lander. We already even have a crew module that could be used for such a lander in NASA’s SEV, which can be ready by 2017 for test flights:

Inside NASA’s New Spaceship for Asteroid Missions | Space.com.
by Clara Moskowitz, SPACE.com Assistant Managing Editor
Date: 12 November 2012 Time: 02:30 PM ET
If the current schedule holds, NASA could test-drive a version of the SEV at the International Space Station in 2017.
http://www.space.com/18443-nasa-asteroid-spacecraft-sev.html

Bob Clark
 
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NASA is considering a version of the upper stage to be used with the Block II version of the SLS that uses RL-10 engines instead of the J-2X:

SLS prepares for PDR – Evolution eyes Dual-Use Upper Stage.
June 1, 2013 by Chris Bergin
http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2013/06/sls-pdr-evolved-rocket-dual-upper-stage/

This is expected to save on costs.

NASA also wants to encourage European participation in the proposed asteroid retrieval mission:

NASA Pitches Asteroid Capture To International Partners.
By Frank Morring, Jr.
Source: Aerospace Daily & Defense Report
June 28, 2013
http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/asd_06_28_2013_p01-01-592208.xml

Then a way to save further on development costs and to get European involvement would be to use the Ariane 5 core as the upper stage. It’s of common-bulkhead design to save mass. I recently learned it also uses the pressure-stabilized, “balloon tank”, method a la the Centaur to further save on tank mass.

The ESA also believes its Vulcain II engine can be made air-startable since this was planned for the Liberty rocket. The Vulcain uses a rather short nozzle since it is meant for ground launch, giving it a 432 s Isp. But simply giving it a nozzle extension would give it the ca. 462 s ISP of the RL-10.

Another key advantage is that because little additional development would be needed it might even be ready by the 2017 first launch of the SLS. Then this first 2017 launch of what was only to be a 70 mT interim version could have the 100+ mT capability of the later versions of the SLS. Such a version would clearly have the capability to do manned lunar lander missions.

You could also give this stage the RL-10 engines, instead of the Vulcain. The Vulcain weighs about 1,800 kg. Four RL-10′s would weigh 1,200 kg. So this would save 600 kg off the stage dry mass.

The NasaSpaceFlight.com article mentions the advantage of having different diameters for the hydrogen and oxygen tanks to maintain commonality with tooling of existing stages, and that is the reason for not having both tanks the same diameter. That would not be a problem of course with using the Ariane 5 core at a common 5.4 meter diamter. And someone noted on the Nasaspaceflight forum thread on this topic that for a uniform 8.4 m diameter, NASA could just use the same tooling for both that is used for the 8.4 meter SLS core stage tank.

For any of these possibilities it would be very good if NASA could use the composite tanks Boeing is investigating. Jon Goff on his blog noted ULA estimated their ACES proposed upgrade of the Centaur could get a 20 to 1 mass ratio by switching to aluminum-lithium for the tanks. And according to Boeing, an additional 40% can be saved off the Al-Li tank mass by using composites, resulting in an even larger mass ratio than 20 to 1.

Scaling up your stage mass, such as to the DUUS size, is also known to be able to improve your mass ratio. Imagine then all these mass ratio improving factors being applied. How high could the mass ratio get, perhaps to the 25 to 1, or even 30 to 1 range???

Imagine what you could do with a hydrolox stage with an ISP as high as ca. 462 s with a mass ratio as high as 30 to 1.(*) ;)

Bob Clark

(*)Hint: use the rocket equation to calculate the delta-v.
 
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Musk Says SpaceX Being “Extremely Paranoid” as It Readies for Falcon 9’s California Debut.
By Irene Klotz | Sep. 6, 2013
Once the payloads are put into orbit, SpaceX may try to restart the rocket’s upper-stage motor, depending on how much fuel is left. Also on tap is a highly experimental restart of the Falcon’s boost stage to slow its crash landing into the sea.​
http://www.spacenews.com/article/la...remely-paranoid”-as-it-readies-for-falcon-9’s

Because of its light payload on this test flight, SpaceX probably could send the second stage on a circumlunar flight on restart. The original Falcon 9 had a payload capability to translunar injection (TLI) of about 2,000 kg. Since the F9 v1.1 is about 60% larger, we might estimate its capability as 3,000 kg to TLI.
However, SpaceX has quoted the F9 v1.1 payload to LEO as 13,000 kg instead of the expected 16,000 kg, based on its larger size. Perhaps its longer length at a fixed diameter caused it to lose some mass efficiency due to further strengthening.
So instead, estimate the F9 v1.1 capability to TLI as 2,400 kg. This would be enough to send Orbital Sciences Cygnus capsule on a circumlunar flight though not the Dragon. In fact other medium lift launchers such as the Atlas V and Delta IV Medium could also send the Cygnus on a circumlunar flight:

Medium Lift Circumlunar Flights.
http://exoscientist.blogspot.com/2013/07/medium-lift-circumlunar-flights.html

Then the Cygnus given a heat-shield and life-support could provide a capsule for a low cost circumlunar manned mission. See the video here of the inflatable heat shield being studied that could be used on the Cygnus:

HEART (High Energy Atmospheric Reentry Test) — NASA (video).
on February 10, 2013 at 8:54 am

http://missiontomorrow.tv/heart-high-energy-atmospheric-reentry-test-nasa-video/

The F9 v1.1 could still send the Dragon on a circumlunar flight if it used an additional, hydrogen fueled stage. One of the appropriate size exists in the hydrogen fueled Ariane 5 second stage.
Such medium-class manned circumlunar flights are important to do since they would be supportive of the fact that manned lunar landing flights can be done much more cheaply than currently thought. In fact using twice the payload size of the medium class launchers and using all hydrogen-fueled in-space stages, a manned lunar landing mission can be done with a Cygnus-sized crew capsule.



Bob Clark
 
A) Adding a heatshield and life support system adds weight

B) Circumlunar flights in a vehicle neither engineered nor used for human spaceflight proves you're able to do circumlunar flights, not you're able to land on the Moon.

C) How would a Cygnus land on the Moon without redesign?

D) You mention Apollo 8 in your blog as a circumlunar flight. It wasn't. Lunar orbit isn't the same as circumlunar flight. Also Apollo 8 demonstrated a lunar orbit with a vehicle that will be used for landing on the Moon. Flying a Cygnus in a free-return trajectory demonstrates what? That you're not even able to achieve orbit?

E) Ever thought about why it's called 'dry mass'?
 
A) Adding a heatshield and life support system adds weight
B) Circumlunar flights in a vehicle neither engineered nor used for human spaceflight proves you're able to do circumlunar flights, not you're able to land on the Moon.
C) How would a Cygnus land on the Moon without redesign?
D) You mention Apollo 8 in your blog as a circumlunar flight. It wasn't. Lunar orbit isn't the same as circumlunar flight. Also Apollo 8 demonstrated a lunar orbit with a vehicle that will be used for landing on the Moon. Flying a Cygnus in a free-return trajectory demonstrates what? That you're not even able to achieve orbit?
E) Ever thought about why it's called 'dry mass'?

The heat shield and life support systems it turns out are a relatively small proportion of the mass of the capsule.

To land on the Moon, you would need a propulsive stage. United Launch Alliance (ULA) has done studies showing the Centaur at a ca. 20 mT fueled mass can be used as a lunar lander when giving horizontal thrusters. For the Cygnus sized capsule you would use a propulsive stage half-sized to the Centaur. The Ariane 5 has such a hydrogen-fueled stage. Modifying existing stages rather than developing ones from scratch including whole new engines would dramatically cut development costs.

You're right Apollo 8 did go into orbit. It was put on a free-return trajectory just in case but fired thrusters to enter into orbit. However, it turns out that if you use the cryogenic Ariane 5 upper stage on one of these medium sized launchers it could still send the Cygnus to orbit the Moon and return to Earth. The advantage of the free return is that you don't even need that extra stage.

Producing this extra stage though would have an advantage in that with small additional modifications it could also be used as a lander. That a medium sized launcher with such a small extra stage could match the flight of Apollo 8 would still support the idea lunar missions can be accomplished much more cheaply than thought. This becomes especially true with the realization this same small stage could be used as a lander.

The dry mass is used to indicate how much mass would be needed to be transported since the propulsive stage is developed separately from it. Then since the other elements such as heat shield and life support are proportionally small you can estimate the size of propulsive stages needed by giving a margin to the size of the crew capsule.

Bob Clark
 
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The heat shield and life support systems it turns out are a relatively small proportion of the mass of the capsule.

To land on the Moon, you would need a propulsive stage. United Launch Alliance (ULA) has done studies showing the Centaur at a ca. 20 mT fueled mass can be used as a lunar lander when giving horizontal thrusters. For the Cygnus sized capsule you would use a propulsive stage half-sized to the Centaur. The Ariane 5 has such a hydrogen-fueled stage. Modifying existing stages rather than developing ones from scratch including whole new engines would dramatically cut development costs.

You're right Apollo 8 did go into orbit. It was put on a free-return trajectory just in case but fired thrusters to enter into orbit. However, it turns out that if you use the cryogenic Ariane 5 upper stage on one of these medium sized launchers it could still send the Cygnus to orbit the Moon and return to Earth. The advantage of the free return is that you don't even need that extra stage.

Producing this extra stage though would have an advantage in that with small additional modifications it could also be used as a lander. That a medium sized launcher with such a small extra stage could match the flight of Apollo 8 would still support the idea lunar missions can be accomplished much more cheaply than thought. This becomes especially true with the realization this same small stage could be used as a lander.

The dry mass is used to indicate how much mass would be needed to be transported since the propulsive stage is developed separately from it. Then since the other elements such as heat shield and life support are proportionally small you can estimate the size of propulsive stages needed by giving a margin to the size of the crew capsule.

Bob Clark

Your fuel numbers sound light.

Have you accounted for boil off and mass of those horizontal thrusters?
 
Interesting articles:

NASA MSFC Says That SLS Performance Specs Fall Under ITAR
http://spaceref.com/news/viewnews.html?id=1697

Report: NASA in Huntsville won't release performance specifications for new rocket
By Lee Roop | ****@al.com
on January 25, 2013 at 3:23 PM, updated January 25, 2013 at 3:51 PM
blog.al.com/breaking/2013/01/report_nasa_in_huntsville_wont.html

Rand Simberg suggested to me the reason why NASA keeps saying the Block 1 version of the SLS will only have a payload of 70 mT, same as for the Block 0, is to maintain the pork of the expensive upper stage.

Citing ITAR for the current Block 1 version makes no sense since they were willing to give the 70 mT capability of the Block 0. Also, another conclusion you can draw from this is the payload capability of the Block 1 will not really just be 70 mT otherwise they would have just given this number again for the FOIA request.

My guess about why NASA kept giving the 70 mT number of the Block 0 and not the real number of the Block 1 was because they just didn't take the time and effort to do the analysis on the capability of the upgraded rocket. It was easier to just cite 70 mT because they knew the new version would at least reach this. But now I'm beginning to think perhaps Simberg was right.

Certainly the cite of the ITAR restrictions just raises new questions.

Finally someone at NASA acknowledging that the first version of the SLS to launch in 2017 will have a 90+ mT payload capacity not the 70 mT always stated by NASA:

SLS Dual Use Upper Stage (DUUS).
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20130013953_2013013757.pdf

This is important since it means we will have the capability to do manned lunar landing missions by the 2017 first launch of the SLS.

Bob Clark
 
Did I already mention, that I hate self-quotes? :thumbsdown:
 
Opening ourselves up to alternative views may lead us back to the Moon:

Saturday, September 28, 2013
Free your mind, and the rest will follow.
http://exoscientist.blogspot.com/2013/09/free-your-mind-and-rest-will-follow.html

Former shuttle manager Wayne Hale argues in favor of using commercial space for BEO missions:

Keynote speaker at von Braun Symposium says NASA needs to 'try new strategies'.
By Paul Gattis | ****@al.com
on October 08, 2013 at 4:08 PM
The current Space Launch System - a heavy lift rocket under development at Huntsville's Marshall Flight Center intended for deep space exploration - could soon fade away like other programs, such as Constellation in 2009.
"The current plan is fragile in the political and financial maelstrom that is Washington," Hale said. "Planning to fly large rockets once every three or four years does not make a viable program. It is not sustainable.
"Continuing to develop programs in the same old ways, from my observations, will certainly lead to cancellation as government budgets are stretched thin. It is time to try new strategies."
The symposium, before the government shutdown, was set to bring together NASA officials with those in commercial enterprises. For example, a panel discussion on Wednesday is scheduled to address the topic of privately funded space activities.
Hale encouraged NASA to learn from commercial spaceflight companies such as SpaceX and Cygnus, private companies which have docked unmanned spacecraft with the International Space Station.
"If we truly believe space exploration is an endeavor worthy of our passions, we must dig deeper, try harder, strive higher," he said. "We must redouble our efforts to be innovative and creative; we must think outside the box. We can start by adopting some of the energy and creativity by the new players in our industry."
http://blog.al.com/breaking/2013/10/keynote_speaker_at_von_braun_s.html

Bob Clark
 
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It isn't Cygnus - the company is Orbital Sciences.
 
It isn't Cygnus - the company is Orbital Sciences.

Who were founded when Elon Musk was in school in South Africa and are launching payloads since Musk first enrolled into college...:lol:
 
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