Cockpit Door Discussion

[C3PO]

Isn't it much more likely that somebody unwanted can get in with force than somebody needed not being able to return? It seems like if your aim is to hijack an airplane that's a point where you could do it.

If you are sitting in a plane with a suicidal pilot alone in the cockpit the likelihood wouldn't matter that much. But hijackers could also use the flightattendant walking towards the cockpit as the trigger to be ready to rush the flight crew.

The problem we're trying to solve is so rare that maybe we should have another look at the measures that have been taken and future measures. I'm not convinced that we'll ever get to the point where it's impossible to bring down a plane if you want to badly enough. There isn't even any any conclusive proof that explains this crash.

 

[dman]

The speculation by the media is really getting out of control.

They are labelling the co pilot as the "KAMIKAZE PILOT"......

 

[Anroalh12]

It's curious. One day before the accident me and 15 friends were flying from Prague to Spain. We were 16, the same as them.

 

[N_Molson]

Was on a very uneventful EasyJet flight this morning. I had a last-minute seat on the last row of an A319, right in front of the flight crew seats. It quickly became the main conversation topic between the 2 hotesses and the steward. One of them worked for Germanwings a few months ago.

 

[dman]

Another accident with AIRBUS 320 today. AIR CANADA flight slid off runway in
HAlifax Nova Scotia after "hard landing"

2 dozen injured , reported as minor

http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/29/americas/air-canada-halifax-incident/index.html

 

[Frilock]

If you are sitting in a plane with a suicidal pilot alone in the cockpit the likelihood wouldn't matter that much. But hijackers could also use the flightattendant walking towards the cockpit as the trigger to be ready to rush the flight crew.

The problem we're trying to solve is so rare that maybe we should have another look at the measures that have been taken and future measures. I'm not convinced that we'll ever get to the point where it's impossible to bring down a plane if you want to badly enough. There isn't even any any conclusive proof that explains this crash.

I believe the phrase is, "If there is a will, there is a way." You can't make something foolproof, when you try you'll simply attract a better class of fool.

 

[Hielor]

During normal cruise no one is wearing a seat belt. And no one is heaving a leak during severe weather or during critical phases of the flight.

And no one needs to reach the rudder pedals during cruise. Also, the rudder on an A320 is controlled automatically even during manual flight. You only need them during approach. In a 737 you only need the rudders during manual flight, which is for take off and landing only.

Again: 737 pilots know what they are taling about

Just because you repeat something multiple times does not make it true.

In America, at least, pilots are required to wear their seatbelts at all times while at their stations:
http://www.risingup.com/fars/view_far.php?part=125&type=FAR&num=311

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, each required flight crewmember on flight deck duty must remain at the assigned duty station with seat belt fastened while the airplane is taking off or landing and while it is en route.

(b) A required flight crewmember may leave the assigned duty station—
(1) If the crewmember's absence is necessary for the performance of duties in connection with the operation of the airplane;
(2) If the crewmember's absence is in connection with physiological needs; or
(3) If the crewmember is taking a rest period and relief is provided—
(i) In the case of the assigned pilot in command, by a pilot qualified to act as pilot in command.
(ii) In the case of the assigned second in command, by a pilot qualified to act as second in command of that airplane during en route operations. However, the relief pilot need not meet the recent experience requirements of §125.285.

I'd be rather surprised if Europe didn't have similar rules.

 

[DeskOrbinaut]

Just because you repeat something multiple times does not make it true.

In America, at least, pilots are required to wear their seatbelts at all times while at their stations:
http://www.risingup.com/fars/view_far.php?part=125&type=FAR&num=311

I'd be rather surprised if Europe didn't have similar rules.

Rules are one thing. Everyday work is another one.

It might sound offensive, and while this place here is not an aviation forum anyway, but there is a huge difference between being forum/internet-theorist (or "defender of the truth" ) quoting rules and posting papers and graphics all day long (or calculating how much turns/degrees it needs to change an altitude setting on the FCU via the corresponding knob on an Airbus) or being practically involved in the corresponding real life business day-to-day.

And sorry that I just have to repeat it once again, but pilots are not wearing their seat belts all the time, especially not during cruise but already not during climb as long as there is no turbulence. And this is also the case in the US and elsewhere on the globe. Rules aside. There are no traffic tickets and no police airplanes. And besides, it's not convenient to wear belts all the time especially on long-haul flights. Just as it's not convenient to leave the seat in the position you chose for take off and landing all the time. During cruise, while there is no turbulence: pilots unbuckle their seat belts usually, pilots adjust their sets for more comfortable positions, and some even doff their shoes and use the foot rests shoeless for more comfort. Also, they put their food/trays/cups/salad bowls everywhere in the cockpit, even on top of knobs on the center panel (I have seen it many times). Rules are one thing, comfort/everyday work is another one. And not to mention the use of cell phones. Passengers would be just envious...

No belts US:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=0Vmg_kAD1EQ#t=29

No belts Germany/Europe:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=nhXXjNybx6A#t=726

No belts Russia:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=be120hZLS8o#t=2463

Same applies for the "two person rule" by the way (rule being different from everyday work and certain airplane types). But it's hard to find video evidence of pilots leaving and entering the cockpit. Most of the time there is no one filming it (and no one controlling it and distributing traffic tickets anyway). And same applies for medical checks as well for example. There are tons of rules and obligations in aviation, but also lots of pilots who don't care all the time. Don't expect that not informing the airline or flight physician about each and every health issue is just an isolated case. Neither at the big airlines, less than ever at smaller airlines. That's not any different to other jobs. You don't want to lose your job, less than ever your licence, as long as you can avoid it and not threatening safety.

In Germany it's not allowed (anymore) to visit the cockpit in flight (just as it is the case in the US as well). But I know very well how a jump seat feels in flight. Even when the pilot is having a leak and returns with some sweets for the co-pilot and the lucky flight deck visitor.

Just don't stick to legislative texts too much.

 

[Urwumpe]

Rules are one thing. Everyday work is another one.

Yes, that is why we are asking for evidence. Could cost somebody his license, should he violate FAA regulations during his everyday work. He can cause accidents that way, you know.

Also please note that eating and drinking count as physiological needs - yes, you are allowed to leave duty station and eat. But please pay attention to the fact that not both pilots are off duty (and not both pilots are eating the same meal today).

Putting your tablet on switches is a minor risk, because of the switch guards. On the Space Shuttle, you can even step on the panels without risking much because of them (but usually, you have a protection anyway).

But to quote on of the teachings for professional software developers: How do you want to write tidy code, if you can't even keep your workplace tidy?

And don't mention Russian pilots - those guys turn off engines inflight for flying steeper approaches.

It might sound offensive, and while this place here is not an aviation forum anyway, but there is a huge difference between being forum/internet-theorist (or "defender of the truth" ) quoting rules and posting papers and graphics all day long (or calculating how much turns/degrees it needs to change an altitude setting on the FCU via the corresponding knob on an Airbus) or being practically involved in the corresponding real life business day-to-day.

It is extremely impolite to hinder people who want to leave. So please, go to your FSX VA amateur pilot forum, where everyday work involves sitting on a chair in front of your virtual flight deck without wearing your seatbelt while crossing the pacific in real-time.

Otherwise... please let us assume, for the sake of having a reliable reference, that all real pilots follow the FAA/EASA rules and otherwise commit errors.

 

[Hielor]

Rules are one thing. Everyday work is another one.

And sorry that I just have to repeat it once again, but pilots are not wearing their seat belts all the time, especially not during cruise but already not during climb as long as there is no turbulence. And this is also the case in the US and elsewhere on the globe. Rules aside. There are no traffic tickets and no police airplanes. And besides, it's not convenient to wear belts all the time especially on long-haul flights. Just as it's not convenient to leave the seat in the position you chose for take off and landing all the time. During cruise, while there is no turbulence: pilots unbuckle their seat belts usually, pilots adjust their sets for more comfortable positions, and some even doff their shoes and use the foot rests shoeless for more comfort. Also, they put their food/trays/cups/salad bowls everywhere in the cockpit, even on top of knobs on the center panel (I have seen it many times). Rules are one thing, comfort/everyday work is another one. And not to mention the use of cell phones. Passengers would be just envious...

No belts US:
<snip>

Those videos show that they are not wearing their shoulder harnesses, sure. However, none of those videos zooms in on the waist area in order to make a determination whether or not they are wearing the belts. In fact, in the second video, the guy either has a very ostentatious belt buckle, or else he's definitely wearing the lap belt.

These aren't car seat belts. The shoulder harness portion can be buckled separately from the lap belt portion.

No, I wouldn't be at all surprised that the shoulder harnesses aren't worn all the time. They're not required to be worn all the time, and they're probably rather uncomfortable.

But you have presented no evidence to suggest that it's a common thing for pilots to not even wear the lap belt while seated.