Project Collins Lunar Station Development Thread

[TMac3000]

About the docking port: is its size random? It would be useful make some kind of standard: the size of all docking ports could be the same of the DP of the Vanguard.

How big is that exactly?

 

[sorindafabico]

The DB has no UCGO cargo capabilities. I can estimate payload pushable for you though.


Straight from my notebook, should give you accurate payload estimates to anywhere in local space. Assuming a direct ascent & rendezvous leaving about 18000 kgof LH2 in the tanks (7000 m/s dry), the DB should be able to deliver max 17 metric tonnes to lunar orbit, but I would reccomend about 16 in order to give you a safety margin.

So should I assemble an early release package for you?

Hmmm...I was planning an UCGO cargo-only ship to deliver supplies to the lunar station. With the Vanguard we can assemble the station in one trip - yes, we will need a inverted reentry to come back to Earth, but it's only one. My idea is to avoid using the Vanguard to deliver only UCGO cargo in LLO, using it when manned presence AND a big cargo bay are mandatory.

The DB could be used to deliver non-UCGO payloads after the assembling (like surface base modules, maybe, and/or the lander).

Still, we can use Shuttle-D to deliver UCGO cargo from Earth to LEO.

I'll reduce the payload mass limit of the UTS, so we can use a more realistic tug.

How big is that exactly?

We need to open the mesh in Mesh Wizard to get the numbers, but, somewhere in this forum, someone says the diameter is almost one meter.

 

[BruceJohnJennerLawso]

Hmmm...I was planning an UCGO cargo-only ship to deliver supplies to the lunar station. With the Vanguard we can assemble the station in one trip - yes, we will need a inverted reentry to come back to Earth, but it's only one. My idea is to avoid using the Vanguard to deliver only UCGO cargo in LLO, using it when manned presence AND a big cargo bay are mandatory.

The DB could be used to deliver non-UCGO payloads after the assembling (like surface base modules, maybe, and/or the lander).

Still, we can use Shuttle-D to deliver UCGO cargo from Earth to LEO.

I'll reduce the payload mass limit of the UTS, so we can use a more realistic tug.




We need to open the mesh in Mesh Wizard to get the numbers, but, somewhere in this forum, someone says the diameter is almost one meter.

Well, I would be honored whatever you end up deciding on. I do want to point out that actually using the Shuttle-D in action can be challenging, so make sure to rehearse well.

Do you want me to pull together a copy of the Shuttle-DB files then?

 

[sorindafabico]

Do you want me to pull together a copy of the Shuttle-DB files then?

We'll use the DB after the LLO station assembling, when we will be choosing the place of the surface base. No hurry in development for while.


(but you can send me before, so I can take a look - just being curious)

 

[TMac3000]

Okay, I have a slight problem. I created the docking port as a shallow cylinder, and attached to the module, but now I can't figure out how to detach it--Blender is convinced that they are one and the same. So I'll have to go through and delete each vertex one by one

Oh, well. If designing spacecraft was easy, everyone would be doing it

 

[SolarLiner]

Okay, I have a slight problem. I created the docking port as a shallow cylinder, and attached to the module, but now I can't figure out how to detach it--Blender is convinced that they are one and the same. So I'll have to go through and delete each vertex one by one

Oh, well. If designing spacecraft was easy, everyone would be doing it

Select the vertex you want to detach, press P, select "By Selection". Had a similar issue where I had 3 textures applied in a single group in my Shuttle PB Mk2.

 

[sorindafabico]

Tmac, how are you progressing? I had some ideas...I was thinking about our lunar infrastructure and doesn't make much sense to have a crewed station in LLO - a cargo hub/bay with some kind of crew transfer corridor would permit us to focus on the surface base. I can write more about if you guys are interested.

 

[TMac3000]

Well, at the moment, I'm still stuck on detaching that docking port from the rest of the mesh, so I can downsize it a bit (thanks to SolarLiner for helping on that)

Just tell me what me module to work on next, and some basic design stats, and I'll make a start on it.

Also, after the Iron Hill A-Crew gets back on the ground, I'm going to spend some time practicing low-thrust routes to the outer planets for the Deep Six mission.

---------- Post added at 05:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:55 PM ----------

a cargo hub/bay with some kind of crew transfer corridor would permit us to focus on the surface base. I can write more about if you guys are interested.

So CLS would be just an orbiting storage unit for cargo?

 

[TMac3000]

Okay, here's the new module, with .94 m docking port, and locking bars for the slots

 

[sorindafabico]

So CLS would be just an orbiting storage unit for cargo?

And for crew transfer - specially if we use a lunar lander. But we can stay with a LLO station idea without problems, OR we can use its docking ports to build a bigger station in the future.

I was thinking about this because the main focus of the lunar program should be the surface base (I had an idea of using UCGO boxes to "build" the surface base structure, but I have to test the concept before), with the orbital station supporting the structure on the ground.

===

The alternative concept for the station would be a cargo depot with support for crew transfer between two vessels (i.e. two docking ports). The lander would be some kind of "detachable" module, used as station module as needed. The docking ports would allow future extension.

It would be simpler to model and simpler to program, allowng us to spend more effort on surface. The main requirements:

- must fit inside XR5 payload bay
- two docking ports
- a corridor between the docking ports (no need to model it, but the overall size of the station must allow something like this - anyway, no problem if you want to model, it would be cool)
- UCGO slots outside - as much as possible

The model could be something like you are already doing, it's very nice!

Instead of polar orbit (which is a pain in the ass for Earth-Moon-Earth transfers) I thought about place it close to the ecliptic plane with the base as close to the Equator as possible.

What do you think?

 

[TMac3000]

I like your alternative concept much better! Once the lander arrives at the Moon, it would never need to leave LLO. You just launch from the moon, dock with CLS, transfer to the XR-5 or whatever vehicle you're using, and head to Earth. Basically the same way Chronus is being used now

So what module do I work on next?

 

[sorindafabico]

So what module do I work on next?

Finish the model you're doing (meeting the requirementes above - two doking ports, etc.). I'll code it, we place it in LLO and start to think about the surface base :thumbup:

 

[TMac3000]

Added the second docking port. Dimensions are: 8.5 m L, 6 m W, 6 m H. Will that fit in the XR-5? If not, what about sending it up on a Themis?

 

[sorindafabico]

A unmanned mission seems simpler (no EVA, RMS nor return needed, so we can do it). We can use Energia + Space Tugs (can be overkill in delta-v, but allows a bigger size) or Themis.

But we'll need a bigger fairing (Themis' biggest fairing has a diameter of 6 meters and Buran-T has 6.7 meters) OR, if possible, lower dimensions (Buran-T allows 5.8m x 5.8m x 35m payloads to LEO, 5.8 x 5.8 x 29.4 using D2-M and 5.8 x 5.8 x 19 using Smerch, 5.8 x 5.8 x 23 using two DM-2).

I don't know Themis capacity to LLO. DM-2 can deliver about 2500 kg. Smerch can deliver > 20000 kg in LLO. Two DM-2 about 5000 kg.

In XR5 bay, a payload with 8.5 x 6 x 6 would fill all three levels of the bay, but the level 3 has only four slots measuring 3 x 2.59 x 6.09...In other words, one of the dimensions must be less than 5.18 meters if we decide to make a manned mission.

How many UCGO slots are you planning with the actual dimensions? Anyone can get a realistic mass estimate of the vessel?

 

[TMac3000]

How many UCGO slots are you planning with the actual dimensions?

At the moment, 15: five each on three sides. I could make the main body a bit skinnier (it's currently 3m x 3m), and that would get it into Chronus's bay (yeah, I want to keep using her)

Alternatively, we could do: Themis first stage, Shuttle-D second stage. I already have a scenario that demonstrates this, and no design change would be required for the module.

 

[sorindafabico]

Shuttle-D can carry non-UCGO cargo and can deliver payloads to LLO?

 

[TMac3000]

I meant that we could use the Shuttle-D to send the module itself to the moon (via docking) once it's built, but now that you mention it, it would be silly to use two different spacecraft, rather than having one that can carry UCGO and non-UCGO cargo. You raise a good point there. Sorry about that:facepalm:

 

[sorindafabico]

Pros and cons:

XR5
Pros:
- Versatile, allows high mass payloads to LLO, highly experienced craft.
Cons:
- Complex and dangerous mission, needs a inverted reentry (or not if it has enough fuel for a EOI, but I wouldn't count with it).


Energia:
Pros:
- Simpler mission, easy payload management, allows delivery of < 2500 kg payloads without problems (I have to test using two DM-2 to expand payload capacity to 5000 kg).
Cons:
- Smerch has low thrust. We would need to design a new tug if the payload becomes massive.


Themis:
TBD


What about Delta IV or Falcon Heavy?

 

[TMac3000]

I'll run some test missions sometime in the next two weeks--for now we're going to be really busy managing Odyssey's return.

 

[BruceJohnJennerLawso]

Pros and cons:

XR5
Pros:
- Versatile, allows high mass payloads to LLO, highly experienced craft.
Cons:
- Complex and dangerous mission, needs a inverted reentry (or not if it has enough fuel for a EOI, but I wouldn't count with it).


Energia:
Pros:
- Simpler mission, easy payload management, allows delivery of < 2500 kg payloads without problems (I have to test using two DM-2 to expand payload capacity to 5000 kg).
Cons:
- Smerch has low thrust. We would need to design a new tug if the payload becomes massive.


Themis:
TBD


What about Delta IV or Falcon Heavy?

Delta IV are nice, if a little bit inflexible sometimes. Falcon Heavy is also good, but you'll need to remember to shut down one of the failure modes as the second stage seems to explode every time you run it.

Why not take a look at the Prometheus LVs?

[ame="http://www.orbithangar.com/searchid.php?ID=5506"]http://www.orbithangar.com/searchid.php?ID=5506[/ame]

They should give you lots of flexibility for whatever mission you need to fly.