Discussion Experience level challenge

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Rtyh-12

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I was just thinking that there should be a set of challenges to determine the experience level of Orbiter players, because there are people that consider themselves advanced and people that consider themselves intermediate, although they can both do the same things. What do you think?
 
Modesty is one's best guide :) An advanced user is flying everything that can fly (and sometimes even flying bricks like the venerable Space Shuttle or Buran), doesn't crash or burn or forget to extend gear, can navigate an ICBM in a suborbital trajectory with CEP of 3 kilometers or less, doesn't ram space stations, has visited all planets and dwarf planets of the Solar System, has built bases on all the moons of Jupiter and Saturn, can perform RTLS in a Space Shuttle Ultra...

Now you see why your humble servant calls himself an intermediate player...
 
If this is such a problem, then I'd smash the Experience tag altogether :)
 
If you think that you have better Orbiter experience than people with "Experience: Advanced" tag, then change it in your User Control Panel. It's only your subjective estimation of your experience, and not some rank that is used for things like: "we only listen to Advanced and Expert members, and no pay attention to Beginners".

And what about members like me, with no experience tag displayed? Does it tell you that I have no experience with Orbiter at all?
 
Aye, the tag means nothing but how you rate your own Orbiter skills, and nothing more. It's not like there's a set grading criteria or an exam you have to sit before you can move up a level, nor like any verification of that could take place...

Orbiter isn't a competition, anyway. For my part at least, I get my kicks from cooperation, rather than outright competition, when it comes to space exploration.
 
I'll just confirm what orb and Xyon have said. Its simply a user controlled option among other profile fields on the forum in which you choose the experience level you feel you are at. It was never intended to be any challenge and is not something earned or anything like that.
 
IMO, Orbiter is a competition - not against others in the community, but against my own abilities. The only challenges I've seen are those that I identify that need to be overcome by myself. The true wonder of Orbiter is that there is so much to learn, and after learning "a little" over the last 4 years, there is so much more I need to learn about and improve upon. Almost endless replay.

I do compare myself with others but I try to only consider what others have contributed versus what I haven't in order to improve my own contribution to the community. As Wishbone said, "Modesty is one's best guide." Too true. For example, after seeing Enjo's self-chosen experience level set to "Advanced", I downgraded my own. This based on the fact I just started to learn C++ and can't yet begin to create MFDs of my own. Based on this, only martins is perhaps the only one entitled to have an "Expert" rating (again, IMO) since he can do EVERYTHING.

And what about members like me, with no experience tag displayed? Does it tell you that I have no experience with Orbiter at all?

No, since you have that special link pointing to your add-ons.

Please forgive me, but in good humor I ask: Those who can't do, moderate?
 
This based on the fact I just started to learn C++ and can't yet begin to create MFDs of my own. Based on this, only martins is perhaps the only one entitled to have an "Expert" rating (again, IMO) since he can do EVERYTHING.


I disagree. You're mixing flying skill with development skill, which may be how you see the "level" represented, but many others would not. I don't understand where all this debate over a simple profile option is coming from, it's really very simple - How good do you think you are at Orbiter? Flying, crashing, landing, developing - it's all subjective and up to you, nobody else.

At the end of all things, Martin has ":probe:" level experience with Orbiter anyway, a standard us mere mortals may aspire to but never reach.
 
Please forgive me, but can't do what?

Sorry, a reference to a quote by H.L. Mencken.

See here:http://www.watchfuleye.com/mencken.html

---------- Post added at 12:56 ---------- Previous post was at 12:39 ----------

I disagree. You're mixing flying skill with development skill, which may be how you see the "level" represented, but many others would not. I don't understand where all this debate over a simple profile option is coming from, it's really very simple - How good do you think you are at Orbiter? Flying, crashing, landing, developing - it's all subjective and up to you, nobody else.

At the end of all things, Martin has ":probe:" level experience with Orbiter anyway, a standard us mere mortals may aspire to but never reach.

I disagree. With Orbiter, IMO, one can't separate flying skill from development skill...or landing or crashing (I'm probably an expert in this category). Please, there is no reason to get your skirts in a bunch over a friendly debate/discussion. A newcomer to Orbiter asked a good question...which I, like others, decided to respond to, hopefully in a positive way. My major point remains...one's level with Orbiter is subjective and self determined.

I do agree that Martin has ":probe:" level experience...but that choice wasn't listed.
 
To put it shortly, I consider myself intermediate because I've learned a lot and I have a lot to learn.

If ever I suddenly find myself with nothing else to learn from Orbiter, I'll bump myself up to "Advanced."

If ever I suddenly find myself with nothing else to learn from other Orbinauts, I'll bump myself up to "Expert."

Naturally, I don't hold anyone else to the same guidelines I do myself.
 
Here's a little guideline you may choose to use or not. Its all subjective as Xyon pointed out and in the end it's totally up to you what to pick. :thumbup:

  • Beginner - You're still learning what the Probe is. You can fly the Delta Glider around in the atmosphere and get it into Earth orbit.
  • Intermediate - You've been playing Orbiter long enough you can get any vessel into orbit proficiently, you can align your plane, and you can rendevous with space stations in LEO.
  • Advanced - You can perform reentries with vessels like the DGIV, XR5, XR2. You can fly to the Moon, land on it, and fly back to Earth (excluding NASSP).
  • Expert - You can fly to any planet or moon in the solar system. You can fly NASSP. You've mastered every aspect of space flight.
 
Here's a little guideline you may choose to use or not. Its all subjective as Xyon pointed out and in the end it's totally up to you what to pick. :thumbup:

  • Beginner - You're still learning what the Probe is. You can fly the Delta Glider around in the atmosphere and get it into Earth orbit.
  • Intermediate - You've been playing Orbiter long enough you can get any vessel into orbit proficiently, you can align your plane, and you can rendevous with space stations in LEO.
  • Advanced - You can perform reentries with vessels like the DGIV, XR5, XR2. You can fly to the Moon, land on it, and fly back to Earth (excluding NASSP).
  • Expert - You can fly to any planet or moon in the solar system. You can fly NASSP. You've mastered every aspect of space flight.
I think that is pretty good guidelines. I remember someone trying to say advanced was going to every planet and moon...

Well, I got a few more planets to get to before I am an expert. :P
 
According to your guideline, right now I'm at advanced. However, I won't upgrade it until I fly to Mars - it was planned for Sunday but my keyboard has failed, so I have to write all this with Windows's On-Screen Keyboard and I can't fly Orbiter either.:sos:
 
I guess that would make me a "flying expert" then. I originally chose advanced when I was able to master most any mission, edit planets, spacecraft, use any mfd, and also had built some 3d models and made an add-on. I also chose advanced because I was flying according to my own math rather than the mfds tools.
 
Tex, is the reason NASSP is at Expert because it hardly works properly atm? :lol:

Darren

PS: No offense just saying.
 
NASSP and SSU are two hard-core, by-the-book projects that put you in the shoes of actual astronauts, and unless you know the book and you know the numbers the ocean will swallow your craft...
 
I thought about this a while ago, and came to the conclusion that there isn't really any way to determine one's skill level with pre-defined challenges.

My computer is pretty old, and can't run NASSP (or SSU). By the standards Tex proposed, I could never qualify for "expert" status, but not through any lack of skill on on my part. I certainly consider Flytandem to be an expert at many things, but AFAIK he has very limited experience with the XR or DGIV - I can probably re-enter tose vessels better than him - but no one else can plan and execute complex multi-sling trajectories as well as he can. The guys who came up with the LRO-LCROSS add-on certainly qualify as experts as they figured out how to fly that mission using both IMFD and TransX together. But for all I know they can't re-enter a XR-2 with an unpowered landing. I'm not saying they can't, but I don't know, and even if they can't they still qualify as experts IMO.

I call myself advanced, but don't feel I qualify as expert partly because I can't use TransX. I'm better than most with IMFD, winged ascents, re-entries, etc, so some would consider me expert.

In the end, I think it's much more important to know your strengths and weaknesses. I seem to have earned a reputation for giving good advice, mostly because I only give advice on subjects that are my strengths. I don't give advice on how to use TransX, because my advice wouldn't be worth much. I do give advice on IMFD, because that's one of my areas of "expertise".

Even in the areas where I excel, there are others who can better me. Should only the best person be an expert? Where do you draw the line determining what's "good enough" to qualify as expert?

I do feel that skill developing is separate from skill flying. Martin, by his own admission, is not the best pilot around. I easily beat his score on Lua Challenge #1. I should hope so - I spend my time flying, while he is busy developing and doesn't get to fly nearly as much as I do. He is certainly an expert developer, while I don't even qualify as a beginner dev. I certainly could never develop Orbiter, no matter how long I spent learning programming and advanced math. I suspect that if Martin had as much "stick time" as I do he would be equally skilled, likely superior.

I don't have anything against some "guidelines" for determining skill. I've seen people here call themselves "advanced", even "expert" when they demonstrate a skill level I wouldn't even call intermediate (rely on "unlimited fuel" to get anywhere, etc). The guidelines should be "general", and not specific to any particular vessel, vessel type, MFD, add-on, etc.

It should allow for "specialists". Someone who specializes in the Shuttle may be expert at launch and ascent, rendezvous, docking, re-entry, yet never have gone beyond LEO. Another who specializes in unmanned exploration could be capable of planning (from "scratch") and executing missions as complex as Cassini- and have never docked or re-entered.

Just my opinion, of course.
 
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