I need help - supplies and consumables for Space Orbinomics

[ar81]

If you remember the old beta, you had standard supply units that you purchased for the trip. I decided to revamp it a bit, but I think I need help.

These are the issues I need to address:

Water: How much is consumed by each person? Is it fully recyclable or a water tank is needed? How much water per day is required to drink, wash, etc?

Energy: When close to the sun you may use solar panels. If not, you might use fuel cells. Fuel cells do not last forever. What materials are required for a fuel cell? How much is consumed per day?

Waste: Is it right to dump garbage into space during planet approach to a planet with atmosphere? Which ones of these items are likely to produce garbage?
-Underwear
-Wash cloths
-Towels
-Personal hygiene kit

Food: For short trips you may have packed food, but for a 4 year trip, you might need to grow food. How do you do that in a DGIV? Or should we bring packed food for the whole trip?

Clothes: Are clothes discardable? Or they are reused?

CO2: If you spend 1 canister per day, a 4 year trip would imply several tons in lithium dioxide + activated charcoal canisters to absorb CO2. How would you handle CO2 in a 4 year trip in a DGIV?

Medical kits: How many for a 4 year trip?

 

[Woo482]

how about using some kind of thing that attaches to the dgiv for storage?

 

[ar81]

I also have another question about human waste... how to dispose of it for a 4 year trip...

 

[n0mad23]

I'm thinking (and yes, I've thought about this particular subject a lot for unrelated reasons) that outside of Earth, biomass is worth more than its weight in gold. Why? Because long-chain carbon molecules are rare on the cosmic scale.

Recycle everything - even the dead. If your close enough to the sun, use solar furnaces and distillation chambers. Further out, create sealed systems and be sure to bring the bacteria from compost heaps.

 

[Joss]

Water: Considering all if not all of the food wild be dehydrated you'll need 3 liters at least per person per day.

Energy: I'm sure NASSP people has the numbers for the fuel cells used in the Apollo program.

Waste: Everything reusable shall be recycled.. Clothing, Personal Hygiene, etc should undergo a chemichal "dry cleaning" once in a while and be re-utilized. Dry waste not recyclable should be stored in expendable containers until close enough to a body that would attract them. Wet waste should be dumped inmediatly since if it freezes it will expand and keeping it warm take a lot of energy.

Food: Growing food in a DGIV?? Hmmm.. I cant see how! Consider 1.5 to 2 tonnes of water per person per year and another 0.75 T of dehydrated food. You sure you dont want to trade your ship for an XR5?

Clothes: See Waste

CO2: There is an unpleasant but feasible way to deal with it.. The wet part of human waste can sustain a small "vegetal colony" wich would help dealing with CO2.

Medical kits: Considering there would be no medical facilities to deal with any major illness.. I'll take a big surgical kit for anything that could be solved by extirpation.. Pain killers and some doses of a fast, reliable, painless, odourless and tasteless efective lethal poison.. And a few plastic bags.

 

[ar81]

I found this on fuel cells
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell
I wonder what would be the best type for a DGIV for a 4 year trip.
And if you want all of them, I would need data on all of them.
I would need to know estimated cost of a certain fuel cell, materials and how much each cost in USA.

I also need current or estimated US$ prices for the following items

CO2 absorber - lithium dioxide + activated charcoal​

One food portion
Rehydratable
Thermostabilized
Beverage
Natural form​

Condiments

Other items

personal higyene kit
washcloths
towels​

underwear
trouser
shirt
brassiere
One G footwear
Jacket
Pair of gloves
Sunglasses
Swiss army knife
Surgical scissors
Chronograph
Sleeping mask
Pair of earplugs
Medical kit (complete kit for space)

 

[craigh]

AR,

As a WATER benchmark, I took a bunch of Boy Scouts out Kayaking this weekend (ages 11-17). We had to pack in our own water, about 3.78 liters (1 gal.) per day, per person.

Even with moderately strenuous exercise we were using just under 2 liters per day per person. That was for drinking, cleaning dishes, light personal hygene. We stretched the water supply a little by using salt water for the initial cleaning of cooking utensiles and pots, followed by a fresh water rinse.

Things to consider, with little physical activity, personal water needs drop dramatically. Figure that people won't be able to bathe every day. Your crew won't be particularly active unless there's an emergency. With decent climate control, there won't be much reason to break a sweat.

Waste Products thoughts:

Gray water (partially treated) can be used in the hydroponics garden if nessessary.

With careful food selection, one can significantly reduce solid waste as well. Make the foods as completely digestible as possible! We did that with a large dog we had, bought a highly digestible food. Much smaller landmines resulted.

Maybe use celulose based clothing on the ship. When it wears out, add it to the biomass for growing plants.

Use really good air filtration! That ship might get really stinky with the BO.

 

[Piet Barber]

With careful food selection, one can significantly reduce solid waste as well. Make the foods as completely digestible as possible! We did that with a large dog we had, bought a highly digestible food. Much smaller land mines resulted.

My wife is interested in details about this.

Not for the dog, but for me.

 

[ar81]

I have been doing some research and it looks like human waste can be processed via some sewage processes that would result in compost and water for growing plants. The only problem now seems to provide sun light to plants... Having plants would solve the problem of generating lots of waste and could help with the problem of food.

Also, plants can absorb CO2, but still absorbers may need LiO or LiOH.

It is also evident that DGIV will be as big as a huge farm with special subspace compression, for not only DGIV should have 4 passengers that barely fit in their seats, but also you have plants that grow food, waste processors and all facilities to sleep, hygiene, supply storage, garbage storage...

 

[Whatu]

IMHO:

DG-IV, too small.
XR5, too big.

Someone needs to make a cargo-oriented ship thats in between that sizes...

 

[ar81]

Hmmm.... it give me the idea of having small compartments with artificial sunlight generators that use electricity from biogas generated by a certain sewage process?

 

[Arrowstar]

IMHO:

DG-IV, too small.
XR5, too big.

Someone needs to make a cargo-oriented ship thats in between that sizes...

XR2? :lol:

Of course, you could always use the cargo bay of the DGIV for this sort of thing, versus using it for cargo... or perhaps get a module that clamps onto the nose and is big enough for the lab to process waste, grow plants, produce water, etc.

 

[n0mad23]

Hmmm.... it give me the idea of having small compartments with artificial sunlight generators that use electricity from biogas generated by a certain sewage process?

There's been tremendous progress with LED lights in the last few years. I don't think it's unreasonable to think full-spectrum LEDs are too far away from production. The good news about this is both low energy requirements and good grow lights! It's feasible in this scenario to use a series of Sterling motors using the waste heat generated by the composting process to generate the levels of electricity needed to power the LEDs.

Have you considered incorporating algae and bacteria vats to create some of the nutrition you'll need? Granted, these aren't the most attractive food sources, but make a lot of sense given the nature of your project.

 

[tblaxland]

There's been tremendous progress with LED lights in the last few years. I don't think it's unreasonable to think full-spectrum LEDs are too far away from production.

By full-spectrum, you mean white colour? These are already available and in reasonable luminous efficacy too, up to about 100 lm/W. Performance wise they are starting to compete with fluorescent tubes but they are still many times more costly. We commonly use this generation of white LEDs in emergency exit signs because their operating life is so much longer than the small fluoros that would traditionally be used.

 

[ar81]

What is the average duration of a LED like that?
How many do we need to emulate sunlight?

 

[Woo482]

about 1billion I think

 

[ar81]

about 1billion I think

1 billion years? Days? Seconds?
1 billion LEDs?

 

[Woo482]

oh sorry I think 1 billion leds but I am probably wrong

 

[ar81]

I think I would need to find out how much energy does a plant require and how much energy LED provides...

 

[dougkeenan]

Energy demands depend on the plant species. And you won't need white light, a combination of blue and red will do.