I need help - supplies and consumables for Space Orbinomics

The BioSphere people would know. Maybe even the Mars society from their hab experiments.

All you'd really need to know is _X_ amount of biomass can take _Y_ amount of CO2 to produce _Z_ of O2. The rest can be fudged (like how much water is used and if you plants are going to grow out of control).
Found it... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosynthesis

6 CO2(g) + 12 H2O(l) + photons → C6H12O6(aq) + 6 O2(g) + 6 H2O(l)
carbon dioxide + water + light energy → glucose + oxygen + water

Glucose remains inside the plant. The rest goes to the corresponding storage tanks.
 
Plants turn themselves into fertilizer after a composting process that will take place inside the greenhouse itself. But since it is a simplified model, the only mass I need to remove from greenhouse, is food. I need to estimate production of food.
 
plants do not degrade themselves, they require bacteria and fungi etc to break down their large macromolecules into the monomeric forms,these would also need to be shipped i guess,however in the process they would release carbon dioxide methane water and ammonia,these can be utilised most efficiently by algae etc (responsible for 70% of the atmospheric oxygen) these can produce the longer more complex sugars required for life, vegetables are not enough to sustain a human unless they were modified as they are often lacking in key amino acids and nutrients,unless some engineered plant were developed you'd have to take a store of these adding weight. as for growing so long as the ship points towards the sun the amount of light available for the trip from earth to mars should be more than adequate so a window would be required much like the italian effort Cupola on the ISS.
 
Windows are holes in the sides of the spaceship...

Soy and Fungi contain proteins and the amino acids. A completely vegan diet is possible. But I'm sure the crew would prefer a supply of steaks in the freezer. ;)
 
Wow, Space Orbinomics is going to be intense, I see. Soon we won't just have to worry about killing the crew with high G acceleration, but also if there's enough soy in the hyrdoponics bay to feed them! :D

I'm curious to know how all this life support information is going to be implemented in the actual Orbinomics engine itself, if you'd be interested in sharing some of the juicy details, AR81. :)
 
I haven't been following this thread too closely so please forgive me if this has been addressed:

If you need more CO2 control than plants can remove from your atmosphere, you could use an amine CO2 scrubber. Amine absorbs CO2 readily at low temperatures and releases it at high temperatures. This is the device used on submarines to remove CO2.
 
plants do not degrade themselves, they require bacteria and fungi etc to break down their large macromolecules into the monomeric forms.
Basically what you are describing is a composting process. There are several types of processes.

Anaerobic digestion
Aerobic digestion
Composting
Thermal depolymerization
Sludge disposal

I simplified it and created some sort of mixture of them for the digestion machine, so the product is fertilizer/compost and natural gas and some other simpler byproducts I do not remember right now.

Wow, Space Orbinomics is going to be intense, I see. Soon we won't just have to worry about killing the crew with high G acceleration, but also if there's enough soy in the hyrdoponics bay to feed them! :D

I'm curious to know how all this life support information is going to be implemented in the actual Orbinomics engine itself, if you'd be interested in sharing some of the juicy details, AR81. :)

Just like accounting. If you remember the old beta, every day that passes you have costs that automatically are added. Same happens to waste management. It is not going to be really intense, you will see data, inventory, since the waste management process is going to be automated. At least that is the concept, for it is not yet implemented, for I am in the research process to create a simplified model that could be somehow similar to real life.

You have an input, process and output. With no waste hardware, all waste must be dumped, so garbage inventory will grow up and that will represent a cost for you when you deliver the garbage. But if you buy the proper hardware, waste treatment changes, material flow will change and you will see different figures in your inventory.

If you have a greenhouse, plants will absorb some CO2, so you may have to consume less expensive, corrosive and toxic lithium based CO2 absorber. But a greenhouse will not work without fertilizer, so it will be useless and essentially disabled until it has everything it needs to work.

Simplifying the model is key, if you do not want a sluggish model.

Handling inventories could or could not be quite challenging. I still do not know, for this is the first time I ever attempted this. The model is incomplete and theoretical at this moment, no implementation yet, for I still need to convert chemical formulas into kg to see proportions that are needed for each process.

I still do not know how inventories will behave. You know right now as much as me. What is certain is that I foresee that waste treatment will reduce your costs. For some reason people are told that clean processes involve costs...

Everything involve costs. In real life if you want more revenue, you will need to start a project, and even if it only takes one meeting to figure out how, it has costs. If you fire people, you increase utilization, but you reduce know-how inside the company, and since usually those who are fired are cheaper workers, company efficiency becomes reduced, for you have a high manpower reduction against a small cost reduction.

So the concept of "pulling this handle I get revenue, pulling this handle I reduce costs" is a falacy.

Just like it would be too expensive for you to buy discardable styrofoam glasses to drink at home, instead of having a reusable porcelain cup or an ordinary glass to drink, a clean process not only involves higher costs, but also pollution.

I recall I worked for a factory where they had key workers to manufacture a very profitable product. They found a Brazilian supplier that had a cheaper raw material that produced acid gases, so workers were exposed to that. I could not breath inside for more than 5 seconds... I asked the financial manager to authorize purchase of masks for those workers and he replied "is this expense absolutely necessary" and I replied "go inside, and if you can stay for more than 60 seconds breathing that, I will not ask you to purchase those masks".

There were 7 people there, they bought only 4 masks. In the long run, those sick workers will mean reduced production and reduced profit, so they sacrificed long term profit to obtain short term liquidity. This short term view, plus the idea that utilization is more important than quality, and liquidity is more important than profit, and short term is more important than long term, is what leads to the idea of "higher costs" of clean processes.

But if you go in a 4 year trip to Jupiter where you could die if you do not plan for the long run, and you do not reduce costs and mass onboard, you will be screwed.

In this game I am not considering the problems of pollution, like poisoning or biohazards. The only impact you will see will be on costs and if they run out of supplies, health of passenger may be affected, and you might have to pay a medical bill.
 
AR, and anyone else:

Just got curious. I'll back up to the original question of yours and look at medical issues and defining the medical suite. We may have to deal with a messed up crew person for weeks, months, years. I'll assume a Nivenesque "Autodoc" do-it-all automated medical device isn't around. Assume we've got basic first-aid covered.

For starters, here's a link to a US Navy PowerPoint doc. outlining analogies between submarine service and space travel. Interesting overview but not full of hard data. If nothing else, it'll provide fuel for further thought and study:
http://www.utmb.edu/otoref/grnds/closed-env-human-factors-070815/closed-env-human-factors.pdf

It would seem to me that a pretty extensive medical capability might be dictated, considering the duration of flights. I don't know if Orbinomics is intended for a virtual world of tramp freighters or corporate/major funding type missions...

Things to consider:

According to the Navy about 75% of the major injurys are sprains, breaks, cuts, etc. (lost the web site, going on memory). So, stablizing and treating such injuries is nessessary. Long term care follows as the crew person will have to stay on board till the next port is reached.

I see x-ray and/or ultrasound capability as being nice to have. It would be useful for identifying internal injuries as well.

1) Bone setting
2) Stitching
3) Burn treatment
4) Some remedial dental capability
5) Amputations.

6) Mirobiological issues: People in a confined space for long periods, periodic ports of call. People are going to catch the local bugs and pass that flue round and round for the next leg of the journey. Extensive capability to deal with contagious diseases, colds, flues, and bactera infections when the recycling system goes bad! A wide variety of antibiotics would really help.

7) A big library of medical "how-to" manuals since we can't call 911! It can all be digitalized. Hard copy back-up for shipboard trama when the power does down (volume and mass issue). I'd want to be able to repair your intestines or stablize your lungs if I had to. It just needs to be large enough to deal with major trama that's treatable under most circumstances, serious puncture wounds, etc. I want to be able to open you up, stitch it back together, and give you a chance to survive. A library allowing me to diagnose each planet's host of diseases would be nice.

8) Some sort of vaccume injury ability. Can the spare airlock be used as a decomression chamber?

9) There's inherantly a LOT of toxic chemicals on board, especially from leaks or fire. There needs to be treatement capability for toxic gases or fluid exposure.

10) One can screen only so much for mental stability. How do we deal with people that snap, get really depressed, etc.? Drugs, a jail cell, what else?

11) Others have already mentioned suicide pill/injections.

What else needs consideration? How much volume might this require?

CraigH
 
Well, the only thing I had in mind was to bring a medical kit onboard and that would solve everything... but what you showed here looks very interesting, worthy of considering...

Waste treatment was basically an extension of financial management since you need to handle inventories of supplies. In the previouls beta you had 1 unit of supplies per person per day and that was all, and lack of supplies would deteriorate people's health in the early beta and that would cause medical fees at base.

The concept of waste treatment enhanced supplies management but it required some research that is posted here.

I think I might need a way to estimate health problems that passengers could have. In the original beta, it was an ideal world, vessel is perfectly safe, and you only see your health affected by lack of supplies or survivable crash landings. But I would hate to have let's say passengers committing suicide every 3 years until there are no people in Orbinomics universe...
 
In Bruce Sterling's Schismatrix cockroaches are used to eat the flakes of skin that fall off the astronauts and the pheromones and other oil-based residues excreted by the crew. These thing do add up over time. It's not a terribly pleasant scenario, but it seems worth considering.
 
Well, the only thing I had in mind was to bring a medical kit onboard and that would solve everything... but what you showed here looks very interesting, worthy of considering...

...I think I might need a way to estimate health problems that passengers could have. In the original beta, it was an ideal world, vessel is perfectly safe, and you only see your health affected by lack of supplies or survivable crash landings. But I would hate to have let's say passengers committing suicide every 3 years until there are no people in Orbinomics universe...

Maybe handle it by taking a random and/or variable hit to the ship moral and/or physical status formula. Other than that, add the capability to buy a better med lab to deal with that sort of hit.

Does/can the loss of crew members and slower reaction times figure into Orbinomics?

I keep seeing having a shuttle or freighter attached to a growable modular mothership where one can attach pods for cargo, life support, etc. as one accumilates a virtual bank account. That account shrinks and grows dependant on resource allocation and events.

What you're creating here is wonderful.

CraigH
 
The original purpose of orbinomics in the first beta, using the basics of Badream rules was to teach people about how banks never lose. The I wanted to add finances, accounting so people can learn about it. Waste management came as extension.

I just wanted player to have very controllable factors. Adding random events involving health could be felt by player as unfair. I think your idea is great if a patient is going to be transported, but causing injuries during trip does not seem a good idea to me. Any ideas on that?

What I am creating is not really so wonderful, at least in my opinion, for you only see inventory data and if you transport patient you would see a health bar... so what happens in the background is more or less an excercise of imagination, not really like The Sims.
 
This might help.
rapp_mars_2006_0005_press_full.jpeg
 
Schimz:

It is a great diagram. I also have mine, which is a bit simpler.
I can see some differences between yours and mine.
-You are disposing clothes, while I use celulose based clothing for the trip which can be turned into compost.
-My diagram uses a greenhouse, digestion machine, urine hygienizer and treatment, fertilizer enrichment, so organic waste is turned into enriched fertilizer for the greenhouse and dead plants become input for the digestion machine.
-Your diagram does not include CO2.
-My diagram uses alternate CO2 absorbers, based on Li2O2, LiOH, KO and greenhouse photosynthesis. It also produces biogas as byproduct of digestion to produce electricity that is stored in a battery and used for the greenhouse.
-My diagram does not look as neat and artistic as yours.
-My process reduces waste, but I am not sure about if it could eliminate it completely.
-I know that my cycle is essentially closed, but I do not have an idea on how inventories will behave.

After looking at your diagram, I realize how big a DGIV is inside...

N0mad23:

Wow!! And just when I thought I had depleted all the possible materials to read...
I am not sure if the process as I have designed it will change, but what I know is that I will see if something can be perfected in this process from these readings.
This material is just great!!!
 
N0mad23:

Wow!! And just when I thought I had depleted all the possible materials to read...
I am not sure if the process as I have designed it will change, but what I know is that I will see if something can be perfected in this process from these readings.
This material is just great!!!

It's true, Pablo - many of us are cheering you on with this one.

I was so happy to find these materials, as until today, I only had hard-copies I'd printed up many years ago. I've been searching for these studies now for nearly a year, and in following this thread, I found the excuse to go searching again.

Yes, they're voluminous, but I think you'll find there are many excellent resources contained in these pages that will assist you in your project.

I'm glad I was able to help :cheers:
 
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